1863 Civil War token

To our surprise the steer didn't do much. We wanted it to charge the fence but nope.
Away from the cities there are still forests and open land.

 

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Yes, I believe so.

 

PennyGuy;

My reference comes from Fuld Patriotic tokens book Revised 5th Edition. All the other dies you listed are from different looking strikes with additional or the same subject matter. They don't match the Lister's picture. Only 353 matched so the rest are irrelevant. See page 106 for Fuld patriotic Listing. This listing is when Die 353 is used as the obverse, which means it's primary side. This is how the token is identified. Pairing is not the key here, unless the poster didn't identify the primary side correctly.The Moore listings you referenced, are when the die is used as the reverse. See title above on each page where the die appears on Moore's listing. Have you used the book enough to know how to read it?

 

Another post brought up the use of the flag/drum/cannon style, I only pointed out that those images were use on other dies as well.

Yes the Moore listing is reversed, in this case it is useful in identifying possible Die marriages, which led to my post that dies 16 and 18 were known pairings. I think you are assuming that I believe die 353 is the obverse on the OP's token. That is not the case. Die pair 18/353 was first identified in Fuld's first edition in 1960.

I find your closing statement to be a bit rude. But it is the internet after all.

 

the Fuld

When the OP posted his picture, you asked if he also had a picture of the reverse. That left the impression you thought he was showing you the obverse. 353 is an exact die in all detail. Nothing left out or added. What die number do you believe matches better? Your post to me wasn't the friendliest either.

 

I appreciate the help. As someone who knows nothing about coins, where do I go from here in determining the value and if it is worth it to sell? I understand you can find into in the Fuld book, where can I find a copy of that book if that is necessary?

 

It might/could sell between $35 and $65. It's all about timing and condition. I think the portrait side you submitted is more likely to be the obverse. It's not in the greatest condition. It is only a R-2 or R-4 on the rarity scale, so that's not helping you any. You may want to check out Heritage Gallery. They are one of the better auction houses and they will give you comparison pricing for it over the years. You will have to join their site to get access, but I have been with them for 15 to 20 years and get close to nothing in advertising from them. Your next option would be to go to a local coin show and present it. Dealers will give you a discounted price, add about 50% on to their price to get retail value. You can also ask what it should be insured for if you include it in your collection. That number would be full retail. Just like doctors, go get another opinion from a second or third dealer. Remember, you have selling costs to cover once sold.

As far as the Fuld book is concerned, either a large library in a major city, or the Library Of Congress. I get books from the latter all the time. Your local library can put in the request for you.

 

salty-sam-1 thank you so much for your reply and your help. Appreciate it.

 

This is the obverse of the most common flags, drum and cannons. It has a Indian Head reverse. I just saw one for sale in the $30-35 range. Yours should be $40-50.

 

OK, please educate me further as I'm becoming very confused. I've already learned in this thread that this token comes w/o a wreath (Fuld#353). Now, you have posted that this is an image of the obverse of this type. When did this change occur? A new reference after the Fuld publication? I was taught that all these designs are found on the reverse of CWTs. Perhaps that's why they have high numbers and are listed in the back of the book as reverses!

 

It can be an obverse if the reverse is blank. Many tokens can be found this way, with only one side stuck. That was my initial thought when I saw but one photograph and why I said it is the obverse. But the poster inserted a new image of the second side much later in the thread. Just before my posting while I was thinking my comment through. That's why I added a disclaimer which included the OP may not have identified the obverse correctly. If you read all the threads and my responses in entirety, you would also see I said this again in my last post. You seem to want to cast shadows on a clear day. You need to digest all content correctly.

 

saltysam-1 posted: "It can be an obverse if the reverse is blank."

That makes sense, and I could call my car a Porsche if the engine were hung in the back.

"Many tokens can be found this way, with only one side stuck."

A uniface patriotic CWT. Now that's another new one for me! Perhaps a member could post some (a few errors certainly must exist). There must be some die trials too. In the meantime, is the drum and cannon side considered an obverse or reverse?

"That's why I added a disclaimer which included the OP may not have identified the obverse correctly. If you read all the threads and my responses in entirety, you would also see I said this again in my last post. You seem to want to cast shadows on a clear day. You need to digest all content correctly."

Actually, I'm the idiot who wrote one of the initial replies saying the token was altered as I had never seen this die and my Fuld book was at the office. After checking today, I can find no die combination where the OP's original image was ever listed or used as an obverse for a token. Therefore, I hope to see one posted here.

 

I will look for mine, I believe it is a Scovill, 352 A. But the one I have has an extra tassle,to the left of the Liberty Cap.

 

Patriotic cwt dies can be either the obverse or the reverse, depending upon the other die it is paired with, even if other than a "blank" side. Patriotic cwts are identified by the die pairs used to make the token. The lower die number is given first, and is considered to be the obverse. Conversely, the higher die number is given second, and is considered to be the reverse. The only exception is when a die is paired with a "blank" die (die number "0"), then the "blank" (die number "0") side is considered to be the reverse, such as for token id 40/0a.

As an example of a die being considered both a reverse and an obverse, die 105 is considered the reverse with token 1/105a, but is considered the obverse with token 105/198a. With some dies, it is known if it is always an obverse or reverse, but many of them can be both.

Some uniface patriotic tokens were made that way, and were not necessarily errors. If you check Fuld's Patriotic Listings, you will see a number of die pairs listed with a "0" reverse. Some of the obverse dies listed as being paired with "0" die are: 1, 25, 26, 37, 38, 40, 42, 60, 67, 72, 95, 100A, 100B, 102, 106, 113, 115, 119, 121, 125, 129, 135, 137, 138, and the list goes on.

To answer Insider's question about the drum and cannon side being an obverse or reverse, the style of dies 350 thru 353 are always listed as reverses (their mating die always has a lower number). If one includes the different style of drum and cannon shown in dies 348, 349 & 349A, die 349 alone can be considered an obverse when it is paired with die 477, but is the reverse when paired with dies 116, 129, 130 & 142.

Just to note a different interpretation, when I read about the request being made for a photo of the reverse side, I took it to simply mean the "other" side of the token.