Has anyone submitted a KNOWN counterfeit?

I get it, people can collect whatever they want, and they are worth whatever someone will pay. There are some who pay real money for a celebrity's clipped toenails. But we all know it is still illegal to knowingly possess, buy or sell counterfeit US coin or currency. I see the point about the TPG damaging someone else's property, point taken, but the fact that people are buying and selling illegal items for gain just because they are "famous" doesn't make it any less illegal.

 

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THIS IS NOT LEGAL ADVICE, but to the best of my knowledge, merely possessing counterfeit coins or currency is not illegal, unless you know them to be counterfeit AND you intend on selling them or passing them off as real.

Marking "copy" on it would render it a replica rather than a counterfeit, which would protect you from legal penalties if you intend on giving it or selling it to someone else. If you intend on holding onto it, with no intent to sell it or pass it off as a real item, you're fine.

Notice these laws specifically refer to US coins and currency. (No bearing on the counterfeit Chinese coin I own then, and I don't intend to sell it or give it to someone with the intention of them thinking it's real.) Selling or giving someone counterfeit foreign coins and currency (or well, just about anything else counterfeit for that matter) with the intent of passing them off as real, under US law, could still be considered ordinary fraud though, just with no additional federal penalties.

https://acefonline.org/make-your-counterfeit-coins-legal-to-own/

https://www.reddit.com/r/legaladvic...is_it_legal_to_intentionally_own_counterfeit/

Many coin stores do in fact keep counterfeit items they accidentally bought, but they keep them separate from their sales inventory, clearly mark them as counterfeit, and have no intention of selling them or giving them to anyone as if they were real. They are not breaking the law by possessing such.

In theory, selling someone, or giving someone, a counterfeit to someone that knows very well it's a counterfeit is legal, but to be safe it would be a good idea to clearly mark it with "copy" or some other obvious marking that it is not genuine. The Secret Service is probably not going to bust people for buying and selling Henning nickels for example, but best not to get too close to the line on such things.

When in doubt consult a lawyer.

 

Great conversation here.

And great insights and advice...

 

The collection of counterfeits in genuine TPG holders as counterfeit were mostly submitted by a group funded by a Chinese money man and operated in Texas. These are still deceptive enough to continue to be certified as genuine, even after warnings and many articles documenting them.

Both of these TPGs had certified the known counterfeit 1806 C-1 half cent back in the 2015-2017 period and these 2 were just slabbed this past summer and offered on the Bay.




And my ICG:

 

"It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so."

Every statute I've seen regarding counterfeit currency includes a clause about intent to defraud or deceive. Possessing it doesn't violate the law if there's no intent to deceive.

How to prove lack of intent (in the absence of mind-reading judges and jurors) is left as an exercise to the reader, and the reader's lawyer.

 

Point well made, agree 100%. Another consideration is even if the current owner has no intent to defraud or deceive what happens when it is passed on? Will the new owner even know it's counterfeit? To me every one that is out there is a potential loss to a future buyer. I just don't get the concept of not destroying counterfeit monies the moment they are discovered.

 

You (or your lawyer) don't have to prove lack of intent, because someone accused of a crime is always presumed to be innocent until proven guilty. Which means unless the prosecution can prove presence of intent, the judge and/or jury is supposed to presume there isn't any intent.

In this case a prosecutor would have to prove the accused intended on passing the counterfeits off as real. If they can't prove that, the default presumption is that they didn't intend on that.

Our justice system isn't perfect, but at least we're never in a position where we have to prove what we weren't thinking lol.

 

Clearly mark it as counterfeit, or be VERY clear to the person you're giving it to, whether money is changing hands or not, that it is counterfeit. That should protect you from any legal penalties (usual disclaimer that I am not a lawyer and this is merely my personal opinion, and while I believe it to be true to the best of my knowledge and understanding, this is NOT legal advice and should not be taken as such). Intent to defraud or deceive comes in if there's evidence you're trying to convince someone, whether the government or a buyer, that the counterfeit item is real.

 

I don't like leaving things to chance. Once I've identified a counterfeit it gets to meet my letter stamp and forever has the word 'copy' on it. That way when it leaves my possession by whatever means there won't be a question.

 

Fair enough. Definitely no question of intent there.

 

I just noticed something else in the law - it only applies to counterfeits manufactured after Nov. 29, 1973, the date the hobby protection act was enacted.

https://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?req=granuleid:USC-prelim-title15-chapter48&edition=prelim
"Pub. L. 93–167, §8, Nov. 29, 1973, 87 Stat. 687, provided that: "This Act [enacting this chapter] shall apply only to imitation political items and imitation numismatic items manufactured after the date of enactment of this Act [Nov. 29, 1973]." "

In my other search results on "us hobby protection act" I didn't see this caveat. The implication is that contemporary counterfeits such as my 1861 dime are not subject to this act, which I think is good. I don't have to stamp COPY on it, and I think I could even knowingly sell it as real (although worth more as a fake). The bad implication is also that a ton of counterfeit gold manufactured in the 1960s is not covered by the act. Another problem is - how can someone prove that the Chinese junk flooding the market was manufactured after 1973? Of course that's easy for anything that didn't exist before 1973, but what about the rest of it? Other fakes have also been around for a long time, like 1909-S VDBs and fake 1955 DDOs.

 

Well for example Henning nickels were made in the 1950's so that law wouldn't apply to them (and they were made with the intention of spending them, not to fool collectors. The irony being Henning was arrested before he passed almost any of them, and he actually lost money making them). The person who made them definitely had an intent to defraud, and he served time for it, but anyone collecting them now is collecting them precisely because they are counterfeit, and have no intention of passing them off as real, being they would be worth less if they were real, not more.

P.S. When coin roll hunting nickels I kept my eyes open for any known Henning dates. (1944 Henning nickels are the most obvious, since they have no mintmark on them, even though real war nickels minted in Philadelphia, or anywhere else for that matter, should. They also have no silver in them even though all 1944 nickels should.)

 

Would if the buyer wants to return the coin to the seller for a refund?
If you alter the coin, the seller is not going to take it back. He wont be able to return the coin to where he bought it.

 

Why would you alter a coin and then try to return it? I must be missing something.

 

You said this. "I just don't get the concept of not destroying counterfeit monies the moment they are discovered."
If you destroy it like you said, you can't return it. Got it?

 

I guess I would never return a bad coin back to the person who originally sold it, just so they could do it again to someone else. It has to stop somewhere. I would try to get my money back but at least would end its ability to defraud others.

 

Let's be realistic; if the seller intentionally and knowingly defrauded you, they're not taking it back regardless. And good luck getting the law involved if they're outside the country.

If you think the seller didn't know it was counterfeit, don't destroy the thing before returning it, obviously. If the seller was acting in good faith they're probably not going to want it back though; what good is it to them? They know it's fake now and if they're honest, it's worthless to them, not worth spending the postage to return it. The only reason they'd want it back is to make sure the buyer isn't ripping them off by falsely claiming it's fake, demanding their money back, and getting a free coin out of the deal.

If you're more concerned about nobody else being fooled by the fake then you are about getting your own money back, take one for the team and go ahead and destroy it. I'm sure the hobby will appreciate your sacrifice. (No that wasn't sarcastic.) Me, I'd rather get my money back.

 

Of course I would rather get my money back, but not at the risk of letting that coin continue its devious escapades. I would not return it without knowing what would happen.

Question - if I purchase a slabbed coin graded by a reputable TPG and then discover it is counterfeit; do I send it to them for a refund? Does it have to go back through each transaction? Say person 1 sends it in and gets it graded, then sells to person 2, then person 2 sells to me, and I discover it is bad. What happens? And if the TPG gets back a bad coin, what do they do with it?

 

…keep in mind that if a counterfeit item gets involved with legal actions the item must be kept as evidence until the evidential value expires. That could turn out to be a very long time…