Barber coin varieties

Any and all are welcome to respond but I have a specific person in mind. They go by @KBBPLL . They once talked about some Barber coin varieties that are NOT listed in the new cherrypicker guide.
I suck at tech stuff and have failed to find his posts, but hope he will be kind enough to give me some of his insights and information as I embark on my newest collection of Barber type coins. James

 

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Barber coinage varieties are listed on VarietyVista under 19th Century and Misc. Mostly RPMs for dimes and quarters.

There are also David Lawrence's references on Barber coinage available on the Newman Numismatic Portal. These were written in the early 1990s and the scans are low-contrast, but usable.

Dimes
Quarters
Halves
​

I maintain a list of links to variety resources on my site.

 

I did submit a handful of Barber dime hub type transition varieties to Cherrypickers. Unfortunately after a lot of time and effort they decided not to include them in the latest edition and in fact my understanding is that they gutted that whole section of the previous listings (something like two dozen removed). Since discovering that there was a third reverse hub type back in 2019 I think, my focus has been on documenting and collecting these transition varieties. I've not had much interest in all the RPMs and RPDs, although one of my transition variety discoveries (1901-O Obverse 1) also has an undocumented RPD. None of the publications or websites have complete information on these, and in some cases what they say is wrong, although they can largely be forgiven for it because nobody really looked into it.

David Lawrence did a decent job with the hub type stuff but from my recollection was basically repeating what John McCloskey discovered and published in a 1980 column in Coin World. McCloskey discovered that there were two obverse and two reverse design types, calling them A and B, and that his Type B's were introduced in 1901. He recognized that his Type B reverse was used as late as 1905 (S-mint) and that the pattern was unusual - 1901-S Reverse Type A, 1902-S Type B, 1903-S Type A again, Type B on 1904-S and 1905-S. He also recognized the possibility that others would be discovered. And then it sat for 37 years.

John Reynolds published an article in the BCCS journal Fall 2017 issue where he fleshed out all of the reverse transition varieties based on the then-known two types, and their relative populations. 1901 had both types at all three mints, then SF had both types from 1902 through 1905. However, nobody knew that there was a third reverse type until I published a BCCS article on that in Spring 2019. I was dumbfounded that nobody had notice that the reverse had also changed in 1900.

Here's a quick look at the changes in 1900 (1892-1899 on left) and then I'll continue in the next post. The leaf veins and corn all changed.

 

What John McCloskey had discovered on the reverse was the addition of an extra fold to the right ribbon, and the two types have been called "thin ribbon" and "thick ribbon." However, as noted in the previous post, the leaf veins and corn had also been changed for 1900. For 1901, all that changed was the extra fold. The now-known three reverse types are below. I just call them 1, 2 and 3.



I have no idea why Barber added the fold in 1901 or thought it was important to add, after he had already changed the hub for 1900. One idea is that this extra fold makes it more like the original pattern coin. The reverse on that is identical to the Seated Liberty reverse. To me though, on the Barber dimes it throws off the symmetry. Another idea is that he intended to do all the changes in 1900 and got distracted by other work. There is a tiny mark in the die on many 1900 and 1901 Reverse 2 coins that is exactly where the extra fold ended up. Did he start the ribbon change, or did someone ding the master and he decided to cover it up?

Here are some crappy images of the die gouge under the right ribbon.


More in the next post.

 

Here are full images highlighting the changed to both sides going from Obverse 1 to Obverse 2 in 1901, and from Reverse 1 to Reverse 2 in 1900. For Reverse 3 in 1901, just the extra fold was added to the right ribbon.





The discovery of a 1900 reverse type led to a few more transition varieties. 1899 (P) saw an early release of Rev2. 1900-S saw them continue to use Rev1 on a handful of coins, which I have determined to have come from two die pairs. And then I discovered that Obverse 1 had also been used on a handful of 1901-O dimes, which was previously unknown. Every one of these I have seen came from the same obverse die, which also is a 1901/1 RPD.

 

Thank you. The online journal for Barbers only goes thru 2015 so i am guess ing much of this information is from later than that. James

 

After spewing all the above, here is a list of the hub type transition varieties that are currently known. The least common ones are 1899-P Rev2, 1900-S Rev1, 1901-S Rev3, 1903-S Rev3, and 1901-O Obv1. [Edit: these 5 are what I sought to have listed in CPG] Although 1901-S had the smallest mintage of these, I deem the 1903-S Rev3 the scarcest of the reverse anomalies. 1901-O Obv1 is also scarce. I have seen two 1901-S coins that are possibly also Obverse 1 but this remains unconfirmed. As you can see, I have obtained examples of all 21 combinations over a period of about 5 years. None of these are impossible to find but it takes a lot of searching! Raise your hands if you have questions. There will be a test on Monday.

1899-P Reverse 1 *
1899-P Reverse 2 (anomaly, less common) **
1900-S Reverse 1 (anomaly, scarce) **
1900-S Reverse 2 *
1901 Proof Reverse 2 (slightly less common) *
1901 Proof Reverse 3 *
1901-P Reverse 2 (less common) *
1901-P Reverse 3 *
1901-O Obverse 1 Reverse 2 (obverse anomaly, scarce) **
1901-O Obverse 2 Reverse 2 (slightly less common) *
1901-O Obverse 2 Reverse 3 *
1901-S Reverse 2 *
1901-S Reverse 3 (scarce) *
1902-S Reverse 2 (anomaly, less common) *
1902-S Reverse 3 *
1903-S Reverse 2 (anomaly, common) *
1903-S Reverse 3 (scarce) **
1904-S Reverse 2 (anomaly, less common) *
1904-S Reverse 3 *
1905-S Reverse 2 (anomaly, scarce) *
1905-S Reverse 3 *

* Have coin
** Have more than one

21 total of 10 date/mint

 

I will also share with you the set I intend to start on.
I am looking to build a 27 coin set with 9 of each dime, quarter and Half.
I will add a P, O, S from pre-1899. Try to work with these transition coins from the 1900-1901 period. build a 4 mint coin from 1 year set for each denomination. 1906 dimes, 1907, quarters, 1908 Halves.
Then finish with one random late date for each denomination. Thanks again for your help. James

 

Yes it was all published after 2015. PM me your email and I would be happy to send pdf's of some articles.

 

I'll just add that what I spewed is just the dimes. There is now a third obverse hub type used on 1900 quarters. There were two reverse hubs used in 1900. So the number of possible quarter combinations for 1900 from the three mints is now 18 but I believe only 15 of those combinations exist. Collecting all 15 of the 1900 25c type pairs is another big undertaking.

I think it's @justafarmer on here who discovered a second half dollar reverse hub type introduced in 1901 along with the previously known change to the obverse hub. Curiously the old reverse type continued to be used at O and S mints also into 1905, same with the dimes.

And he's also discovered that the B in Liberty is a different style just in 1909! [Edit: I'm talking about the nickels] The most recent BCCS journal has his article. Lots of crazy stuff in the Barber series and I'm sure more discoveries will be made.

 

Very interesting, must have taken a lot of your time. Quick question; will the test be open book? If not, I will be playing hooky on Monday, way too much to try and remember.

 

I would love to have that information but don't really know how to do what you asked. Do I just post my e-mail? james

 

It's "start a conversation" under a member's profile, which I have done. Look for the Inbox thing to indicate that you have a new conversation directed towards you. Open that and put your email in a response. I wouldn't post it publicly here and I think that's a rule violation anyway.

 

I've been meaning to do a detailed post about this for a long time so this was an opportunity. Once you digest the pickup points it's not difficult to ID the varieties in hand, although some magnification is usually needed. Yes, it's open book.

 

@KBBPLL . Looking for an easy identification method.
For Reverse change 1900. The "New" style is more simplistic but slighty larger? Or is there a better marker to look for.
For the 1900 Obverse, the "O" from OF touches the figure of Liberty T-1 right, correct? James

 

@samclemens3991 The easiest way to ID Rev1 versus Rev2 dimes is to look at the strong central vein of the left-most leaf. For Rev1 (left, below) it curves downward and intersects the overlapping leaf midway across that lobe. For Rev2 (right), the central vein is straight and emerges right in the notch between the lobes. Below are two F12 examples. The vein and notch are deep features and one of the last things to wear off a coin, so you can usually ID what type it is even in AG3 grades.



For confirmation you can also look at the corn kernels. For Rev2, there are 4 kernels in the space where there were 6 on Rev1, and they are more square and "toothy."


Rev1 versus Rev2 really only matters for identifying the 1899 (P) early release of Rev2 anomaly (relatively uncommon, about 2% of the mintage) and the 1900-S Rev1 anomaly (also 2-3% of the mintage).

To identify Obv1 vs Obv2, the cartilage in the center of the ear is best. For Obv2, it was changed to a strong straight rib in the middle of the ear. It's pretty easy to see this even in low grades. Other markers - Obv1 the ribbon touches the N in United, the leaves NW of the ear are rounded, the leaf directly below the last S in States is rounded and distant. Obv2 the ribbon no longer touches N, the leaves NW of ear are pointy, the one below S is pointy and close to the S. Yes, the bust is marginally farther from O on Rev2, but this is not readily discernible for most coins.

Obv1 versus Obv2 so far only matters for 1901-O dimes, where the Obv1 anomaly is quite scarce. I have only seen one graded example in auction archives and a handful of badly worn raw ones on ebay. Two better raw ones I immediately purchased.

If you look at my two full coin images above and compare the circled areas, you will see the differences. Once you get the hang of it, when searching coins your eye immediately goes to the left leaf vein for the reverse, and the central ear for the obverse.

I love typing.

 

Look @ the "B" in "LIBERTY" in the 1st collage containing 3 images of the CROWN for nickels from 1908 - 1910. You'll notice in 1908 and 1910 the "B" exhibits a beer belly and 1909 the "B" is normal. if you look at examples from other years in the series you'll see that 1909 is the only year that the "B" doesn't exhibit a beer belly.

The 2nd collage contains 4 images of the crown from 1909 only (2 Proofs and 2 business strikes). 1 of the proof and 1 of the business strike examples exhibit a broken "B". The broken "B" examples were discovered by @KBBPLL.

We both agree the business strike Broken "B" is a beer belly "B" but on the Proof example I am not totally convinced it is a beer belly "B".

To date no unbroken "B" examples of the beer belly "B" have been found on 1909 nickel coinage. And no normal "B" examples in any other year except 1909

 

Was also able to determine that in 1908 and prior the date position deviated from working die to working die. In 1909 and later the date position remained static from working die to working die within a given year but the position (including the "19" of the date) deviated from year to year. This also holds true for the Indianhead Cent, Barber Dime, Barber Quarter and Barber Half. The Lincoln Cent the position of the "19" of the date remains static from one year to the next.

 

It's interesting how many crazy things went on with the Barber coins. I really enjoyed helping you research your discovery. Now if you really want to collect all the hub types of Barber coinage, you have to add the 1909 nickel broken beer belly B and "fixed" B in both circulation and proof.

 

The change in the shape of the B (and more subtly other letters) was probably meant to be a permanent change to the model. It could be that in 1910 it was decided to make that year's master die from an undated (1908) working hub, as that would have been easier than removing the date from a 1909 working hub and making a new master die that way. The beer belly B therefore returned in 1910, then in 1911 they got the process for creating a dated master die down, using a 1910 working hub to start with.

The proof 1909 with the broken B looks like design hub doubling. This is especially apparent at the bottom of the I.