1912 Lincoln Matte Proof diagnostics

I have a 1912 Lincoln Cent that has a very interesting appearance. I posted a question about whether it could be a matte proof in Post Your Lincolns.

I just got back from the LCS where the dealer (who deals in a lot of vintage proof type coins) strongly suggested that I send it in for grading.

I found some information about diagnostic markers, particularly a die scratch through ERT, that my coin does not have.

While researching this, I see that the mintage was 2145 coins. In another old discussion thread, someone recounted that the proof dies were only used for about 1200 coins. So it seems there must be two dies used for 1912 proofs.

Is this true, and if so, where can I find diagnostic information for the "other" die?

A 1912 Matte proof is currently on eBay 1912 Matte Proof Lincoln Cent CAC & PCGS PR65 Red (at a laughable price of $7000).

My coin:

 

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wow

 

Your coin looks nice, better than the one listed on ebay, the ebay one was bought at auction for $3k last year.

 

Lovely, I bet @BadThad would love it.

 

Indeed!

Do you have pictures of the side of the rim? Not sure that it's a matte. I'd TGP it no matter what, it's a nice coin.

 

Here are the diagnostics I had, but it seems all the pictures have expired.
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/615385/1912-matte-proof-lincoln-diagnostics

BTW, nice coin, but I doubt it is MPL.

 

I found that site too, but they assume there is only one proof die. Based on the mintage numbers, I believe there were two. I also went to Heritage and not all of their 1912 proofs have these markers.

A quick shot with iPhone and fingers (not touching the surface, no matter what it seems!). I can fire up the USB microscope if you want, once I get home.

 

I think it's a matte proof.

PS: Hey, watch it, don't drop that thing!

 

Carl Waltz Jr wrote a book "The Study of Matte Proof Lincoln Cents 1909 to 1916."
Volume II of the ANA's Counterfeit Detection A Reprint from the Numismatist set also has some information and images.

The image of your coin hints at some of the diagnostics. For example it looks like it DOES have the die polish on the "ERT." Nevertheless, without more magnified images of "GOD," "WE," and "ERT" to check for diagnostics - who knows. My gut says Not Proof.

 

His rim looks good, the edge, the surface, the detail in the profile, most prominently in the hair...this is a matte proof, I'll bet you my shiny new dime on it.

 

The rim isn't the only area that needs to be flat and sharp. The side edge along with the edge that cuts down to the field needs to be at flat 90º angle, not beveled or rounded in any way. The edge in your photos appears to have a rounded corner.






Both Albrecht's and Kevin Flynn's publications agree that only one single set of dies were used. Unless you've studied mint records closer than they have I would think their findings more believable.

 

You believe what you read, that's fine by me. I'll believe what I see.

 

Agree, that's what made me wonder, the rims aren't square enough.

 

But it can't be a business strike, and if it has not been "altered" it has to be a proof, no?
How do they get those proofs to look like they have been freshly spray painted?

 

In order to be a proof it absolutely has to have every diagnostic attributed to a 1912 MPL, not just one or maybe a couple, but every one.

Why do you say it can't be a business strike?

 

Look to the rim left of LIBERTY on his coin and note the outer shell that's still trying to hang on. Look at around 7:00 and see more of it. @RonSanderson, let us see the edge adjacent to the 8:30-9:00 position. Doesn't matter whether AM or PM, lol.

 

Bob, I don't have their books, but I know some of you do, and that is why I asked for help, opinions and diagnostics.

In lieu of having the records at hand (I went to the Mint site and the US Archives sites and they aren't online) I did find a lengthy series of posts discussing the production counts and other interesting info. Kevin Flynn was involved in much of this discussion. At this post, I saw "So knowing that the individual dies used on all the proofs from the number of known observed dies, individual dies did not seem to be pushed past about 1,000 pressings." This thread also says three dies were used in 1916 to produce just 600 coins.

That, combined with the discovery of a second die pair for 1909 proofs a few years ago (1909 Matte Proof – New Coin Die Discovered), makes me think it is reasonable to ask if there are two die pairs or just one.

But I can only pursue this a little way before I need the help of others.
This is why we ask for it.

I will try to take as many pictures as people are willing to look at. But we are watching Groundhog Day tonight, again, so some responses may have to wait until tomorrow.

My research shows there should be a die scratch that runs through BER, but I think it is higher than the little line shown here, and should extend from E to R. But I don't see it on all of the Heritage 1912 proofs, either.



I need a better rim photo. And I need to capture the inside curvature, as requested. I will work on that.

 

Don't forget 8:30-9:00 on the edge. Get a bird's-eye shot, I'm betting it's flat as anything.

 

Say Goodbye to your dime...Lincoln cents from 1909 to 1918 and possibly up to 1919 can be found with sharp details, nice square rims, and matte-like fields. They are not proofs although many look to be, especially to folks like us who don't handle them. AFAIK, TPGS's use certain diagnostics found on 100% Proof strikes to certify that a coin was made as a Proof. Although the OP's coin is a beautiful example, IMO, it is not close to a proof strike.

So far, it appears that 2 Obverse dies and 1 Reverse die was used. They occur in several die states.
Post#11 shows what the rim of a proof Lincoln should look like.

 

Supposing I knew all that when I said this coin is a proof. Just supposing...

Right. If it were fully intact. Look at how his rim is clipped at 8:00. This coin could very well have been encased, explaining any funkiness on the rim and edge orientations. In fact, I'm beginning to think there's a better than even chance it was encased.