Holy .... NGC just took PCGS behind the woodshed!

Yes and yes. CAC bids are also the same regardless of the plastic.

 

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I was to understand from the previous CAC site posted statement that seemingly old A,B,C grading was equivalent to Gold, Green, No-Bean CAC grading for a specfic TPG. I recently bid and won a relatively scarce/expensive PCGS/CAC MS65 1923D Double Eagle. I believe the coin substantiated your assertion of independent CAC standards.

I believe PCGS testified to great disbelief of many following PCI trial proceedings that a coin scratch was unacceptable for a grade, creating an appreciable defendant penalty. I thus assumed that the auction "tru view" quality images with a CAC "bean" would dictate a scratch free coin.

My understanding of a scratch, as defined in dictionaries, must be different than that of PCGS. I observed a sharp tooled continuous width groove in the coin. I assumed (I know....) that would dictate a C level coin, incapable of receiving a "bean".

Thanks for your enlightenment.

 

The A, B, and C analogy doesn't correspond to a gold (exceeds CAC standards) versus green (passes CAC standards) sticker. An "A" coin is supposedly high end, and a "B" coin is supposedly a solid coin. Both receive green stickers. A coin will receive a gold sticker if CAC believes it is solid for the next higher grade supposedly. The key word in all of this is supposedly (despite the fact that numerous coins also green bean at higher grades when resubmitted - CAC is just as inconsistent as PCGS and NGC; go figure!). A "C" coin is an accurately graded coin but is low end for the grade. Of course, there are "D" and "F" coins which should never slab that will also not bean.

As for scratches, the loosening of those standards drives me crazy, especially from CAC. I have seen coins with minor hairlines that have toned over long ago and are barely visible to be rightfully rejected, yet CAC will gleefully and openly sticker a coin with a deep scratch that it describes as toned over. I have seen far too many PCGS and NGC bust coins with deep scratches that are distracting that end up with CAC stickers. To be clear, we are not talking about adjustment marks (I know what those look like), but actual scratches that appear to be from old staples. Not to go off on a tangent, but this is why CAC needs to stop with its marketing language about "A" and "B" versus "C" quality coins, etc., and simply call it for what it is. It is a private trading network and you must pay to play. If he puts a sticker on it, he'll buy it later... maybe (there is technically no guarantee and CAC could close its doors tomorrow without any liability for its opinions). CAC's bids were very strong for the first years, but its bids have been much lower recently (usually around Greysheet bid or whatever they call it now in the new CDN). Bottom line: It is nice to have someone else's opinion, but don't rely too much on CAC. Sometimes CAC needs someone to verify and grade it!

 

I saw someone suggest that a class action lawsuit may be in the works against PCGS. Why would NGC just sign off on a broadside like that without a lot of allies?

At least some people have been upset by weaker than expected guarantees by PCGS. http://www.justanswer.com/law/8374s-refuse-honor-company-guarantee-membership-agreement.html

 

That guy is saying that they labeled his coin as "no arrows" instead of "with arrows". An obvious mechanical error which is covered in their T&C. The lawyer is telling him to file suit in small claims court so they will pay him off just to make it to away. I don't see how this has anything to do with anything

 

Yep just read the guarantee and he would see that the obvious misdescription is NOT covered under the guarantee.

• And a With Arrows is obviously not a No Arrows

 

PCGS may have struck back. NGC forum has been down all day.

 

PCGS is pumping out some very strict grades!

https://www.cointalk.com/threads/pcgs-this-is-indefensible.289804/

 

Actually the class action issue was entirely different than that lawyer link, I just cited it as an example of mistakes that they find ways around.

If a class action suit went after a big grading company like PCGS you might not know about it until it was settled.

 

I would expect a class action to be launched with great fanfare on the part of the plaintiffs, for the specific purpose of leveraging that publicity into a quick out-of-court settlement. When the rubber meets with the road and complainants are offered cash money, altruistic motives tend to fade. Lawyers understand that.

 

Yup. Also to spread the word so the lawyers can easily get more plaintiffs in on the suit for intimidation purposes to leverage a quicker payout. But of course that divides the settlement into even more pie pieces. The online lawyer was right about one thing. In class actions the only ones that really win are the lawyers which is why it's rarely used unless the defendant has deep pockets and the case could reap a very large settlement. Otherwise it's not really worth it from a plantiffs perspective

 

"Muddy Waters" is well known for launching lawsuits, usually publicly traded stocks sink and quickly get short sold, probably if they were vulnerable, it would have happened already. The Salzberg article may cause extra attention from outside investment concerns like that. http://www.muddywatersresearch.com/

"The Chinese have an old proverb, “浑水摸鱼” (muddy waters make it easy to catch fish)".

 

Imo The only thing his diatribe will do is result in a backlash against NGC and possibly him being let go because of it.

 

Can he be let go? Who does he answer to? NGC is privately held....

 

It isn't just Salzberg, he would never have issued that article without extensive communications with others at NGC and elsewhere.

 

If he owns anything over 50 percent of the company he would be untouchable, if not they could force him into a silent partner role if they really wanted to

 

Wouldn't that imply that no AU50 could bean at all? I've seen plenty of them.

 

Sore jaws have a tendency to do the same, regardless of percentages.

 

Yea at the end of the day if there is enough of a backlash the owners would find a way

 

I'd love to know who that list of owners actually is.