Fake or authentic Dupondius Vespasian

Ohhh. CNG 87 lot 985 has the wrong picture. Yeah... guess I didn't read the description .

 

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Nope. Its the same picture. Same coin.

 

Email send to CNG yesterday , all info added including a link to this thread.

 

I'm going to reveal the full extent of my ignorance of these Flavians now (sorry, @David Atherton!!-- I do appreciate your educational posts but they don't always stick ). I thought Judaea Capta issues had, well, captives, or other iconography associated with battle and victory (such as Victory inscribing a shield). This Pax reverse is considered part of the Judaea Capta coinage? Are you saying it brought less in the e-auction because the words "Judaea Capta" were not spelled out in the description?

So confused

 

The description could have something to do with it. In my experience the electronic auctions bring much less in general.

 

i found your coin, he has the same letter in red

Vespasian. AD 69-79. Æ Dupondius (27.5mm, 12.07 g, 6h). Lugdunum (Lyon) mint. Struck AD 72. Radiate head right, globe at point of neck / Pax standing left, holding branch and caduceus, holding patera over lighted altar to left. RIC II 1191; Lyon 68. VF, dark green patina, some red, traces of earthen deposits. From the Dr. Lawrence D. Sporty Collection. Ex Triskeles 12 (10 July 2014), lot 189.

 

There are rather few coins that were struck on flans that were not cast. About the only other option is to be cut down from a larger slab using a chisel. Those would be squared more than round. The question of a seam is whether the cast was made in a two part mold or just a open top dish. Fabric is interesting to me soI have a page.
http://www.forumancientcoins.com/dougsmith/fabric.html

 

I'm with TIF, confused. IMO a coin is not a Judaea Capta issue just because it shows something related to peace or war. It needs to have at least the word IVDAEA and preferably CAPTA or a scene showing a captive. One common one is Victoria Navalis which may refer to winning ways of the Romans but did they conquor the Judaean Navy? To me, this is the same thing as sellers that try for increased interest/prices by saying a coin inscribed Constantius is a Vetranio because both shared a reverse type. Pax is any peace. Victory is any victory. These can be upgraded by legends or designs specifying the adversary (eg Philip's Pax Fundata cum Persis or Victoria Carpica). If we are to pay extra for a special type, souldn't we get more than a Pax standing there?

 

Its the Same coin sold twice by CNG, first time in may 2011 for $ 525
with a wrong description ""Judea Capta.""
This is a Judea capta Vespasian sestertius, looks totally different:
different prices too, price range 4000-20.000 (for this beauty)



second time sold July 10th 2014 by Triskeles auctions lot 189 presented by VAauctions sale 309 Auction 12 (auction card included with the coin)
cant find any more info about the saleprice on the net.

third time sold by CNG E-sale 382 lot 371 september 2016 bought by me for $160

* the green coin is the same coin as the blue one , its off colour sorry.

 

I would not consider a Pax reverse type part of the 'Judaea Capta' series and have never seen one classified as such. I'm unaware of any scholarship that would support such a claim.

 

Realised $460 in the Triskeles auction:
http://www.vauctions.com/ViewArchiveItem.asp?ID=24498

 

Thanks zumbly ! Your absolutly right David , and the Triskeles socalled Jewish war type
make no sense eighter imho.
The Judea Capta and The Jewish war type descriptions probably explain the relative high prices of $525 (CNG) and $460 (Triskeles) ex BP
as soon as it was described as a PAX it only made $160 ex BP

Just took some more pics of the edge:

 

To me the edge looks purposefully ground to that shape, rather than a casting seam. I wonder if someone altered the edge in antiquity. Shaped as it is, it might make a bezel fit better (more snugly) without having to bend the metal over the faces of the coin. Just a thought

 

Betcha David Sear would know

 

I agree TIF ,it doesn't look like a typical casting seam , and since it was sold twice by CNG and one time by Triskeles and belonged to 2 more or less famous collections , I now assume its authentic, opinions here on Cointalk are about 50 - 50 percent authentic - fake.

David Sear is no option since the shipping costs vice versa from the Netherlands to the USA insured & registered are costly, will take months to get it back unless I pay another $ 30 for fast service.
Wouldn't hesitate if it was a $500 - $1000 coin. Vespa Pax goes back in my collection added
with the new info of 3 auction results and 2 former owners .

thanks for all your trouble & comments ,CT friends

 

This Vespasian dupondius in my collection shows a similar 'bevelled' edge to Andres' coin.

The coin is much worn, and so is the edge, but you can clearly see what appears to be a line running around part of the periphery.

Since this is unquestionably a legit coin, it may appear this 'edge line' is not unusual in dupondii of this era.

I thought this may be of interest, and may help to reassure Andre

 

Thanks Eduard, great help ! , I think its a perfect match with the edge of my coin.

 

When I opened this thread, my first impression was that the coin was fake, but a really good fake that would have fooled me were it not for the edge. I was surprised that it made it past CNG (twice), but I've known them to make mistakes in the past, although those mistakes are few and far between and they always make them right in the end.

Having read this entire thread I feel that I've received some very useful education. I now believe the coin to be genuine. To me the question now shifts to one of desireability, the obverse and reverse are beautiful. However, it has that edge that is going to make it suspect to almost everyone who sees it.

This is my opinion only, other will feel differently, but sadly I would not want this coin in my collection.

 

My husband has one like this but it appears to be made of copper. Fake coin?