Let's Play a Game - Grade that Coin (and an intro to the group)

I’m new to the board but I’ve been collecting coins since 1966. Over the years I’ve drifted in and out of ‘collecting’ but the last couple of years I’ve been on another collecting spree, mostly ATB 5oz and some other US silver. Anyway – I have 2 1938-D Buffalo nickels that I bought around 1968 at BU (I sure some of you can remember when there were only uncirculated and brilliantly uncirculated coins to add to your collection.) I think I might have paid about $2.75 each (Which was two weeks allowance at the time). They are twins – both beautifully toned. This coin is a prime example of value related to the high-end MS grades from MS67 to MS70. Value as a MS67 not much, value at MS70 - $$$$.

I was doing all this because I’m in the process of selecting my first batch of coins to send into PCGS for grading. If this coin comes back as anything less than an MS69 or 68 I probably wasted my money. But at MS69 or 70 it was a good investment. (I have a 20th-century type collection that I put together many years ago with all uncirculated coins.)

Some background on me - in my early days I was considered by many in my coin club to be an outstanding coin grader. I have a great eye for detail.

So – I looked online at a number of Buffalos graded between MS67 and MS70. I only considered very good photos (HIRES) of PCGS coins. I was looking for bag marks and good strikes as the differentiating points between the grades.

After an evening of scanning photos I'm at a total loss for where my coin might come it. I swear I saw MS69s that didn’t look as good as some MS67s. After a while I started to just compare strikes mainly looking at how clear the E Pluribus Unum was on the reverse. Again I saw MS67s and 68s with clearer strikes than some MS69s.

So figured I’d give the group a challenge to “Grade that Coin.” I attached a photo (the color is pretty close to the actually light bronze tone of the coin). Look at it and see what you’d grade the coin as. But also state why you think is would grade at your given grade and not the next grade higher. Then I’ll send it into PCGS and we’ll see what their ‘experts’ think it is. Unless I get a bunch of people telling me is would probably grade at below MS68 I won’t be sending it into the PCGS for grading.

Anyone up for playing this game?

KenF

 

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First, welcome to the neighborhood @Sundance79 !

Because of the dings on the jaw, upper lip and nose, I'd be surprised if it got an MS68, but I don't collect Buffs.

Chris

 

Welcome!

First of all, there are no MS 69 or MS 70 1938-d Buffalo nickels. The highest at PCGS is MS 68.

http://www.pcgscoinfacts.com/Coin/Detail/3984

The coin you have pictured looks really nice but I would doubt it would get an MS 68 based on it even having some small marks and the fact that PCGS would be more stringent in giving a top pop (especially after the recent NGC letter).
I would put your coin in the MS 65 to MS 67 range. The most common 38-d grade is MS 66, so your coin would likely get that grade (maybe a plus or bump to 67 for the color and originality).

 

Welcome to CT. Your buffalo is lovely, but I'd put it at MS-65 FH. You'll have to decide if it is worth the cost of grading.

 

ddddd - When I was looking at Bufs I was looking at all years of Bufs that were PCGS graded, not just for 1938Ds. I did find some MS69s in other years. I don't believe I found any MS70s.

 

I agree as well. The coin grades in the MS-65 or 66 range.

 

I don't see any dates in MS 69:
http://www.pcgs.com/pop/detail.aspx?c=83&p=MS

There are 3 PR 69
http://www.pcgs.com/pop/detail.aspx?c=83&p=PR

 

Thanks to all for playing the game so far, and remembering to include why you think it would get the grade you feel it deserves and not higher.

I looked online all over trying to find some clear guidelines for grades higher than MS65 and just couldn't come across any. PCGS has some photos showing coins graded at the different levels, but nothing like an arrow pointing to something on the coin and explaining what effect some feature about the coin either merited the grade is was given to deprived it of a higher grade.

 

But the proofs were made in Philadelphia, not Denver.

 

I would have sworn I saw a couple of MS69s. I wonder if I was looking a PR69 and missed the PR in front of the 69. I searched and looked at so many I probably got confused. Or perhaps it was an NCG and I missed that is wasn't a PCGS.

 

True. What I was implying was that there are 3 total proofs graded at PR 69 for the entire buffalo nickel series.

 

grades above MS-65 are less defined by marks (or lack thereof), but by completeness of strike and in comparison to other coins of the same date and mintmark combination.

 

Mikenoodle - Completeness of strike was what I started looking for. But the Buf is a hard one. There's nothing like steps of other sharply designed features like some other US coins. So I was looking at the sharpness of the text as my guideline for strike. And nickel is pretty resistant to bag marks so in general the Buf doesn't see a lot of those.

 

The completeness of the horn is the general full strike diagnostic. I also look at the inner rims for completeness as well. For grades higher than 65, high luster (or eye appealing toning) as well as fullness of the strike is important.

 

There is a great book called "Making The Grade" published by Coin World which includes maps of each US coin series. The maps show where the first signs of wear will show on a coin. It is a great reference and a good tool for helping to know where to look.

 

The two primary factors in TPG grading are, in order:

1) Eye appeal
2) Luster

 

There are no MS70 Business Strike coins from PCGS or NGC. None. Of any US issue. There was one PCGS MS70 2003 Cent, but it was downgraded after developing a spot.

Sundance79, your Buff is certainly a very nice one. It's certainly at the point where - meaning no offense - far better images would be required in order to form any sort of accurate grade opinion. Along these lines:





The details which form the difference with coins at the Premium Gem level are minuscule. Above MS65, they're all nice and you have to look pretty darn close to differentiate.

With your coin, my attention was immediately drawn to the few marks on the Indian's nose and lip. Now, I'm well aware that digital photography has given them more strength than they would show in-hand, but they're in a focal area and would count against the ultimate grade. Even as a non-grader of Buffs myself, I couldn't imagine awarding that coin a 68 with those marks in that central location. Similar marks elsewhere? Maybe; Buffs have a lot of places that will hide marks almost completely.

Compare yours to the one I posted. Mine was MS66....

 

I never collected Buff before (and I don't really now either), so other than my 2 1938-Ds pretty much my entire Buff collection. They were the first uncirculated coins I bought for my uncirculated type set many, many moon ago.
SuperDave - thanks for the photos. You are right, clearer photos would be necessary. I'll take a loop to mine coins tonight and do some comparison. I'd love to have a PCGS person look at it and tell us why your coin is 'only' an MS66. It is beautiful.

 

I deliberately posted them that large so the reader could look more closely at the cheek, hair and buffalo's torso, to add up the number of marks notable which aren't there on a more perfect strike. There are plenty, if you look close enough, and that's why I don't grade Buffs on the Forum.

 

I have either that book or one like it. (Been a long time since I pulled it out - assuming I could even find it) If I recall it had nothing above MS65. It's those sorts of maps for the lower grades that I'd like to see for the grades MS65 and above. Grading coins should NOT be subjective. Especially when the difference in value between an MS68 and an MS69 can be thousands of dollars or more. In the lower grades like an; Good, Fine, Extra Fine, etc., I think most collectors can come to agreement because there are some pretty good objective guidelines at these grades.