Question about Daniel Carr offerings

Although the coinworld article is under a detecting counterfeits column, it does not mention counterfeiting at all. It seems they just do not have a fantasy coin column, so they figured the detecting counterfeit column would do.

I am not claiming that the occasional piece will not get out there and cause some confusion, however it is far from the mass confusion you claimed in post #649. Again, it would have to be a rare and unusual circumstance for anyone to get burned by one of these.

Just as any regular coin with post mint damage can be misconstrued as a rare and valuable piece by a novice. The difference here being there are very few Carr overstrikes, people paid a premium to own one and thus will probably take good care of it.

 

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I am glad you brought this up, I was thinking of going into this yesterday.

Any serial number stamped into metal is much more difficult than many believe to remove. I came across this with car Vehicle Identification Numbers (VIN).

http://www.evidencemagazine.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=366

I believe there are other methods of revealing the original metal imprint too.

 

Much of my professional life has dealt with metallurgy, although I am not a metallurgist.
The creative process and the chance to 'go back in history' to recreate things within your own minds eye, must be a very satisfying 'job'.

 

It will only worsen with time. For now, there are many die hard Carr fans that are holding many of his pieces. I suspect that most of them will act honestly. What happens when those collectors die and their estates liquidated? What about those that sell now for various reasons? It is also inevitable that many of his coins will be separated from their flips and his insert as more time elapses, which will only contribute to confusion and the opportunity for fraud. Within the coming decade there will be more confusion, and you will see the phenomenon that myself and others are complaining about.

 

The VIN ( Steel/iron) or copper nickel ( 5 cent pieces and others) can use the work-hardened effect to retrieve numbers and details ,such as Nic-a-date ( ferric chloride) or other process. But there is no such process available for high % copper, silver, or gold. They have different molecular bonding ( metallic bond), different from ionic and covalent, that gives them color, malleability, and relative low hardness. So I am sure you will find no way to raise the former details once overstruck sufficiently to show the details of the new strike. IMO.

 

People that dumb will always be that dumb, no amount of legislation is going to make them smarter or safer unless you legislate that they cannot make any decision for themselves and a guardian has full control of their lives

 

My personal coin is well labeled and has clear instructions, that should be a given for many coins. If I reach my expiration date tomorrow, many of my coins need such instruction so the people who inherit them will not defraud or be defrauded. Many will also be graded, especially if prices in the aftermarket rise, further reducing the chances for confusion.

I can see that several pieces may well cause confusion in the future, however I do not believe it will be more than a few. Then you have to take that and figure out the possible damage that can occur. Supposing someone does sell the overstrike and misrepresents the token as a genuine coin, how much will a novice be prepared to pay? They would also be able to go back and sue the person who misrepresented it.

In an ideal world no fraud would ever take place, however we don't live in an ideal world. The FTC rules themselves are in my opinion flawed. Suppose I decided to restrike the word 'copy' onto every genuine U.S. Coin that passes through my hands?

 

Certainly the strength of the overstrike will decide how much if any of the original strike remains. Mr Carrs leave strong evidence of the original from what I have seen.
I remember there is some other technology which is used. I had a quick look but could not find it. I will look again later though. I believe it was either some kind of X-ray or sonic device that could look at the underlying metal. Although as you say softer metals are different.

 

Another thought here, I received as an Xmas gift, a set of state quarters layered with gold and platinum from my mother in law some years ago. She thought that as I am a collector it would be a nice gift for me. Although I appreciated the thought, i could not stand to have them in my collection. I re gifted them to a family member. How many of the millions of these types of sets will end up being listed as genuine 'gold' or 'platinum' quarters by people who know no different?

The point being that we can legislate and pass as many laws as we wish, it will not stop the problems. Only knowledge, research, education and TPG's can protect the individual collector.

 

There's 100s of threads about his pieces on various sites, even if his own webpage lapses there will be no shortage of information about his pieces. His coins don't need the flips in order to be identified and many of the over-strikes are getting grading by ANACS. But since no one has a time machine those dates still will not exist as government struck coins so nothing will have changed

 

I agree to a point that you cannot protect everyone, but I do not think the HPA is unreasonable in attempting to reduce some of the problems. Nevertheless, that is the point that I have been trying to make in these threads: Congress wrote the HPA largely to protect stupid people - even incredibly stupid people. Stupid people are not going to pick-up a Red Book. Most lack education (and/or common sense) and may be indigent and not have access to the internet or smart phones or lack the foresight to use them. That is why I am in shock when I see people make the comment that no one would be fooled by his pieces. The people making these statements are not acknowledging that they have specialized knowledge that the average American does not. No one seems to grasp that "average" is fairly stupid. I never appreciated this myself until dealing with the public.

 

If the litmus test is whether or not someone somewhere could be fooled by something then everything needs to be banned. You can pick literally anything and find someone or a group of people somewhere that will be fooled by it. The average person isn't a genius, but in all honesty the average person wouldn't care. While collecting has a healthy base the majority of people aren't collectors and these aren't coins that will circulate leaving the average completely unknowable person essential no way of coming across one without being on the internet.

 

I wish most prepared like you have.

I have no idea how much it is "worth" to the right person. Yes, an aggrieved individual can file a tort suit for fraud. The HPA is icing on the cupcake that gives the government additional remedies to go after violators, including those who may not have intentionally cheated anyone. While it is true that a cause of action for constructive fraud (where there is not scienter/ intent), the HPA established a baseline by imposing a duty that potentially deceptive/confusing pieces be labeled as with "COPY." Many here argue that use of the word "COPY" is incongruous for all situation. I agree and wish that Congress would have permitted other adjectives, but that doesn't excuse non-compliance.

It would be perfectly legal to do so, but I am not sure why anyone would do so. Insofar as FTC rules, I agree there are plenty of areas that need work. That is also why I vehemently disagreed with your earlier conclusion that I was reading personal preferences into the HPA. The actual text of the HPA does not support what I would personally prefer, which is why I never advocate for it. My personal opinions about what the law should be are irrelevant.

 

That's my thought too. Congress sought to alleviate strict rules that many would find draconian. The compromise was that the items be marked "COPY."

 

Agreed. If you google any of Daniel Carr's overstrike coins (year, coin type, mint mark), it only takes a matter of minutes to find out what you have (or what you are being offered if someone is purposely trying to deceive you). All of my Carr overstrikes are in ACACS holders.

 

Oh no. We get that we have superior knowledge and that stupidity and ignorance is abound. The problem with your logic is that we don't need a nanny state to the point where a highly collectible coin with a large premium should be outlawed because somebody in a very rare occurrence that needs many factors to line up correctly be fooled into paying thousands of dollars for a Carr piece and forsake the many thousands of collectors that enjoy his art which is legal to produce and own. If you want to go on a crusaders mission then the gold plated quarters, halves and the like are far more dangerous. You just feel like you have a bully pulpit against Carr in these forums and a direct line of communication to the artist himself. So I suggest you start your campaign against the likes of govmint and stop this nonsense against a man who does nothing but add, in a significant way, to this hobby.

 

You can still find people fooled by things marked like that. There is no way to legislate away stupidity or greed when people want to believe they found the only one in existence and are about to retire on a private island

 

The top 3 search results for me are a PCGS news result entitled "1964-D Peace Dollars - Do they Really Exist." A second page shows the $10,000 reward that PCGS, a top and well respect grading service, has to grade a genuine coin (effectively implying that such pieces might exist). The third is an eBay advertisement. Of course, Google searches are often personalized, so it might be different for a non-collector.

 

PCGS utilizes web optimization to stay near the top of the results. But you will also notice that that reward has never been collected and they have several rewards offered for various things that may or may not. After what happened to the aluminum cent and the double eagles if they do exist they will never see the light of day in the USA

 

Exactly...

https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/973154/how-to-tell-a-copy-from-the-real-thing#latest