Seleucid NP. Could use your help, poll

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by David@PCC, Nov 27, 2024.

?

Is the obverse of SC 1950

Poll closed Dec 7, 2024.
  1. Demeter with calathus

    25.0%
  2. Tyche with calathus

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  3. Poorly rendered Demetrius II

    50.0%
  4. Something else, respond below

    25.0%
  1. David@PCC

    David@PCC allcoinage.com

    I'm returning to CT and will not be posting on numis forums going forward. I've acquired this little coin that seems to have a mystery attached to it. It is from the reign of Demetrius II, a little 12mm ae. I am not sure whom is on the obverse hence the poll. It seems the authors of SC are also unsure. It has a companion coin SC 1949, only image I can find is this plate.
    Screenshot_20241127_155135_Gallery.jpg
    It is clearly Demetrius II. My coin differs from this one because the inscription is different and more importantly the obverse shows someone else. The authors say the "details of the type are not fully clear", and mention demeter as a possibility as well as Demetrius II. Here is the NP
    g365.jpg
    Demetrius II, first reign
    Denomination C
    Mint: Unattributed Western issue
    145 to 138 BC
    Obvs: Unknown right within dotted border.
    Revs: BAΣΙΛEΩΣ ΔHMHTPIOY in two lines on right, ΘEOY ΦIΛAΔEΛΦOY NIKATOPEΣ in three lines on left. Tongs.
    AE 12x13mm, 2.03g
    Ref: SC 1950; HGC 9, 1015(R2-3)

    For comparison here is SC catalog 1950
    Screenshot_20241127_155430_Gallery.jpg
    And a nice example from BNF
    [Monnaie___Module_C_(SC)_[.]Démétrios_II_btv1b8568473q.JPEG
    This is why I put up a poll. To me the obverse looks very feminine and not like Demetrius at all. I should mention during this period there were a few tyche on the obverse as well, like this SC 2264.
    11543873.jpg
    This claims tyche wears a calathus, which is basically a basket that holds wool. Complicating things more I discovered a calathus is also associated with demeter :banghead:. "As a religious emblem, the calathus was carried in honour of Demeter and of Tellus as denoting abundance; and is found in connection with Athené, the goddess of the art of weaving. Priestesses are also represented as wearing the calathus on their heads, and in imperial times the god Serapis (q.v.) is thus depicted." This is demeter that may be wearing a calathus.
    Screenshot_20241127_162335_Samsung Internet.jpg

    So we either we have a poorly drawn Demetrius, tyche, or demeter. There are no other Seleucid coins with demeter on the obverse, just one with her on the reverse SC 2376.
    I do not know what relation the tongs on the reverse have other than this coin from Metapontum and shows demeter on the obverse with grain and tongs on the reverse.
    6253269.jpg
    To me the tongs would more likely pair with demeter than tyche, or the reverse has no relation to the obverse? Maybe @Jochen1 can chime in with his knowledge of mythology.
    So do the poll and share any Demetrius, tych, or demeter coins.
     
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  3. cmezner

    cmezner do ut des Supporter

    The obverse could be a youthful Demetrius II. depicted with big eyes, which we can see on his other coins; also the nose and lips look like Demetrius II to me.

    Recently I got this one - the reverse legend is incomplete, I just liked the obverse very much. I have several Demetrius II AE coins, which were in a multiple lot; most of them are worn, but I enjoyed attributing them.

    This is the tetradrachm that shows his eyes, nose and lips that I find similar to the one you are asking:

    AR Tetradrachm
    Phoenicia, Tyre, Dated SE 184 =Autumn 129 – Autumn 128 BC. Phoenician standard.
    26.5 mm, 13.70 g, 12h

    SC (part 2) 2195.2b; HGC 9, 1122; DCA 230; SNG Copenhagen 356; BMC (Greek Kings of Syria, Demetrios II, 2nd Reign, p. 76) 4; Rouvier 1928; Babelon (Rois de Syrie), 1181; Mionnet V, 583; SNGIs (Sylloge Nummorum Graecorum, Israel I, The Arnold Spaer Collection of Seleucid Coins) 2236;

    Ob.: Diademed and draped bust of Demetrios II to r.
    Rev.: BAΣIΛEΩΣ (ΔHMHTΡIOY) Eagle standing on prow of galley to l. wings closed; palm frond in background; A/ΠE above club surmounted by the Tyre "TYP" upload_2024-11-27_18-13-17.png monogram in l. field; AΣY monogram above date ΔΠΡ in r. field. Monogram FP between legs.

    Picture courtesy CNG:

    upload_2024-11-27_18-13-35.png
     
  4. philologus_1

    philologus_1 Supporter! Supporter

    The reverse of the OP example does indeed carry a very close resemblance to tongs. And I cannot find any Seleucid type with tongs. (IS that the case?) But nonetheless, based on the reverse legend pointing to Demetrius II, my first and loudest thought = a low quality rendering of a youthful Demetrius II (as @cmezner mentioned as a possibility). I have a small, bronze "first reign" Demetrius II, SC_1928.A, that has a portrait with a similar pointy nose and somewhat protruding chin as the OP example, though not quite as crudely engraved.

    Last but not least...
    upload_2024-11-27_21-25-51.png
     
    David@PCC and cmezner like this.
  5. Bing

    Bing Illegitimi non carborundum Supporter

    Ditto
     
  6. David@PCC

    David@PCC allcoinage.com

    Both 1949/1950 are tongs, mine is off struck only showing the handles. It also shares the same obverse die from the plate coin and bnf example.

    I also have a 1928.
    g294.jpg

    That's a great tet cmezner.
     
  7. philologus_1

    philologus_1 Supporter! Supporter

    Just for comparison sake, I made a side-by-side image of an SC_1928 (upper / David's) and an SC_1928.A (lower / mine). Both "R2" per Hoover. The portrait on these don't look as much like the OP example as my old memory was telling me. :-o

    upload_2024-11-27_23-25-42.png
     
    David@PCC, Bing and Johndakerftw like this.
  8. Jochen1

    Jochen1 Well-Known Member

    A few words about Demeter:
    In general, Demeter was a goddess who was closely associated with agriculture, especially with grain. Therefore, her best-known attributes were ears of grain and poppies, as a sign of fertility, and sometimes a sickle. Other important attributes were the torch, a symbol from the Eleusinian mystery cult and originating from the legend in which she searches for her daughter Persphone, and snakes, which characterise her as a chthonic goddess. She is also known with a polos, a kind of royal crown, not to be confused with a kalathos.

    I know that Demeter was also depicted with Kalathos. But this is very rare and I know of no coin on which this is the case. But that doesn't have to mean anything. She usually wears a veil as a sign of her honour.

    I don't think the headdress Demeter is wearing in the picture is a kalathos. It starts far too low on the head and would then have to have a large, deep cavity at its base into which the upper part of the head would fit. For me this is a diadem.

    Translated with DeepL.com (free version)
     
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