As if you needed another reason to think grading ancients was silly

Stumbled across this and thought it might get a few laughs

 

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I know you don't want to hear this but that one is not all that bad for those. If you wait for one that looks like an eagle you might be in for a long wait.

 

While nice for the series, I think what stands out is the "XF" grade it has received. If it were a modern in that condition it'd be given a grade of "G", if that.

 

Even sillier:



I don't see this as a new tier of service on NGC's website so perhaps this is a special deal between Heritage and NGC. Doug spotted the coin on eBay. It was sold by Heritage.

 

I see nothing to complain about here. After all we often comment on how it is impossible to grade ancients in a meaningful way using only fine and friends terms. I see nothing on the label that I can disagree with. Perhaps F 4/5 4/5?

 

Hmmm. Well, I suppose they could have inserted "For Issue" after the XF designation. As Doug points out these typically come in really crummy condition. Even Byzantine coins might be XF for wear but look "Fine" in appearance. It's a fine line. But once again, as a dealer, its why I rarely offer a grade. With a good photo one can decide for themselves.

 

This is a strange one. Maybe Barry can elaborate on why there is no grade offered. Seems silly to slab when they dont guarantee authenticity. And if there is no grade assigned, what is the point?

 

Wow- now that is absurd!

 

I don't have the expertise to play this game when it occasionally comes up, but feel free to grade mine .

 

This is EITHER a "mechanical error" (don't think so) or it is similar to the "Genuine Only" tier. Very often, the latter is used to slab a coin as genuine that has problems which would call for a "Details" grade.

IMHO, the coin in the OP is OVER GRADED - big time! This type of crap results because "they all are like this"; "it's pretty good for the issue"; and "the coin is worth XF money" syndrome that results from market grading, net grading, and "extensive knowledge of the issue" grading. IMO, they all suck! And to call that DAMAGED SURFACE anything close to a 4 is to make a mockery of the entire surface designation system.

Let's take the OP coin over graded as an XF. If all the dealers, graders, and collectors that know the series agree that the coin is XF and this coin is a really high end example of these coins; what happens years from now if a hoard is found of beautiful XF/AU non-porous examples are found?

I'm in favor of grading ancients as an aid to less knowledgeable folks; however, you guys are slowly winning me over to : NO SLABS for ancients.

 

We all know this situation exists for ALL COINS from every country since coins were first made. It takes a great deal of experience to detect a weakly struck coin in a high state of preservation from a worn example. Unfortunately, for most, it makes no difference so they are judged/priced by their design detail.

 

I think you may be too modest.

Otherwise, I'm puzzled? If you cannot grade, how do you know you are paying a fair price? Are you just trusting in the opinion of those who are selling the coin?

The reason I ask is this: In every grading seminar I have been in, when a student asks the instructor to grade a coin, he replies: "What do YOU grade it?"

So, What do you grade it first?

 

Most aren't graded by dealers, and if they are then it is usually ignored. I suppose heritage is the exception, but I don't adhere to the grading system when I bid those. Most on CT don't buy based on an established grading system, but on the overall appearance. Can't put a price on that!

 

My ancient grading system goes like this:

No thanks
That coin is ok
That coin is really nice
I have to have that coin
I NEED THAT COIN!

and then I price accordingly
Richard

 

I believe many of us who choose not to have slabbed coins were turned off early by the NGC decision to apply modern wear based standards to ancients where wear is a relatively minor factor in the desirability level of a coin. US slabs separate levels or normal strike quality that are very closely spaced but ancients can be exactly as they fell from the die and be anywhere from poor to prooflike when it comes to details and appeal. This decision allows coins that have really major problems but no wear to be slabbed with a MS, AU or EF grade while some of us would have trouble calling the thing fine because there is zero detail where there should be plenty.

Grading ancients is a no-win situation for dealers. If you call a VF an EF people will accuse you of being an evil overgrader but calling the coin VF will turn off people who recently came over from modern coins where VF is spending money in too many minds. Long before slabs, members of the ancient coin club laughed about dealers unwilling to list a coin under VF for fear it would not sell but having to be careful not to call too many EF and get a reputation as an overgrader. That is one advantage of the TPG companies taking the heat while sellers can wash their hands of the matter.

I'm fine with the concept of providing a photo and skipping the letters as long as the seller points out things that may not be obvious in the photo. The most common thing we see today is 'Better in Hand' meaning 'The photo shows too much I hoped you would not see'.

A good number of my coins have situations that just don't grade in the traditional way. Below is a dupondius of Domitian which could be described as having good facial details and strong Athena upper body but no hair and no feet. I guess it is a Poor-VF 1-5/5, 4/5? It is better graded by the photo which looks a great deal like the coin. I am really, really glad I am not trying to feed the family based on my coin grading skills. I guess we could stand to lose a few pounds, anyway.

 

I'd be shocked if any of the more experienced collectors on this site base the price they're willing to pay for a coin on their own or others' judgement of the coin's grade.

Comparisons to other similar coins, and those coins' price and condition, can be very helpful in evaluating whether a potential purchase is fairly priced, but the grade is pretty much irrelevant when performing a comparative evaluation for the purpose of making a purchase/no purchase decision. If I'm comparing a potential purchase against four or five other coins for which I have pictures and recent prices, it's completely meaningless to me what the grades of those other coins might be.

 

That is my personal experience. Agreed.

 

I didn't see that coin as it was graded before I started. Looking at it though I would guess it's most likely a typo. If you look at this example you'll see what an NGC XF should look like.

Barry Murphy