Bizarre Rotated Die Clash on Buffalo Nickel?

Discussion in 'Error Coins' started by SorenCoins, Jul 17, 2024.

  1. SorenCoins

    SorenCoins Well-Known Member

    This one is a bizarre one. I believe the anomalies are clash marks here, but they do not entirely line up with clash overlays of the buffalo nickel— most notably the marks under the bison’s stomach.

    I do also see a more normal clash mark running below PLUR of PLURIBUS on the reverse (this corresponds to the chin from the obverse). I may see a clash mark below the chin on the obverse as well.

    BUT REALLY, what is happening under the bison? Never seen those marks even on highly clashed nickels.

    3889F0A5-9E69-4250-8E4A-75A1481D2F8B.jpeg 3141FB78-7174-4AAF-AAB8-169546755C64.jpeg F85C26BF-35DE-4C05-9560-EBE982AFC0CE.jpeg
     
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  3. SorenCoins

    SorenCoins Well-Known Member

    An explanation as to why I thought it may be a rotated (or misaligned?) die clash: I'm not sure the distinction as I am not entirely familiar with clash terminology.

    I was looking at this clash overlay from MADDieClashes.com:
    [​IMG]

    The area below the bison corresponds to the forehead of the portrait, there is no hair here to create the marks seen below the bison.

    However, I noticed this hair (see arrow) had a similar shape to the marks I had seen, just rotated 90 degrees or so:
    BuffaloClashOverlay.jpg

    Thoughts?
     
    SensibleSal66 likes this.
  4. SensibleSal66

    SensibleSal66 U.S Casual Collector / Error Collector

    I'm not totally sold on this conclusion. I see where and what it should look like below the Bison's stomach and don't see a match. the shape is different and is it supposed to be raised or recessed?
     
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  5. SorenCoins

    SorenCoins Well-Known Member

    I'm not sold either but it's a working hypothesis. A clash mark would be raised, which the mark on my coin is.

    I experimented to see if I could replicate the shape by rotating the overlays. Came up with this. It does not match the clash marks under the chin and on PLUR, which seem to correspond to a typical die clash / TDC. So is it a multiclash event? Not sure if this is even possible, but the area under the bison looks decently similar in my opinion:
    NewBuffaloClashOverlay.jpg
     
  6. Kentucky

    Kentucky Well-Known Member

  7. SorenCoins

    SorenCoins Well-Known Member

    Oh come on, Kentucky. I'm merely applying the scientific method. Don't conflate me with these guys o_O:hilarious:
     
  8. Collecting Nut

    Collecting Nut Borderline Hoarder

    To me it looks like a cut or gouge that has been worn smooth. The raised areas are where the metal was displaced and the low areas are were that displaced metal came from.
     
  9. cwart

    cwart Senior Member

    Doesn't the scientific method try and prove something isn't a thing and its only accepted when the other options are proven not to be?
     
  10. SorenCoins

    SorenCoins Well-Known Member

    Not quite at this stage. I've just presented a working hypothesis hoping that others more well-versed in die clashes would chime in, but my idea needs to be vetted of course. While the shape of my alignment seems to correspond to the shape of the anomaly on my coin, there are serious questions that might discount this idea and point to it being coincidental. First is the implausibility of a multiclash event occurring (to my limited knowledge of clashes). Second (and perhaps most convincing that my overlay is not correct) would be the lack of a curved clash mark appearing behind the bison, which would have occurred from the rim. Tilting could theoretically prevent that, but like I said: I am not a clash expert. I'm just brainstorming while I wait for the experts :)
     
    SensibleSal66 likes this.
  11. cwart

    cwart Senior Member

    Is there a nickel from that year with the proper die rotation? Even in the 1930s the presses were able to pump out hundreds of millions of coins a year. At the speed they moved there would be pretty much zero chance of a one off error. There would be other coins with the clash out there if that’s the case. Those dies also would have produced many coins prior to the clash occurring meaning there would also be many with just the rotation. That would be the first question I would answer.
     
  12. Pickin and Grinin

    Pickin and Grinin Well-Known Member

    Not seeing much. Looks like some heavy bag marks.
     
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  13. ZoidMeister

    ZoidMeister Hamlet Squire of Tomfoolery . . . . .

    Die polish abnormalities?

    Z
     
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  14. SensibleSal66

    SensibleSal66 U.S Casual Collector / Error Collector

    HuH?
    nx.gif
     
  15. KBBPLL

    KBBPLL Well-Known Member

    Your rotated overlay has the obverse facing the wrong way. It should be a reversed image. I have seen a dozen clashes on the reverse of a Barber dime, so multiple is possible. Rotated die clashes also possible. Clash and then rotate and clash again but offset that far, not sure if I've ever seen that happen.
     
  16. charley

    charley Well-Known Member

    Gouges, multiple, inclusive of both front legs and (OMG THE POOR THING!) Penis. Ouch.

    No anomaly, no clashes, no attempts to hide stuff. Just normal PM damage.
     
    SorenCoins likes this.
  17. KBBPLL

    KBBPLL Well-Known Member

    Now that I look again, I believe @charley is correct. There's a gouge across the front hoof that has the same appearance as the depressions where the "die clash" is.
     
    SorenCoins likes this.
  18. SorenCoins

    SorenCoins Well-Known Member

    I realized this late last night and forgot to come back and mention it.

    I think this is the simplest, most reasonable explanation. I think the resemblance to the overlay shape is merely coincidental given the overlay's insufficiencies.
     
  19. SorenCoins

    SorenCoins Well-Known Member

    While I initially thought the marks looked like an original part of the die, they do seem to strangely be worn-down pmd gouges.
    1D2FBB18-260A-4AA9-872B-A95D0058B79F.jpeg 67DA50A2-6B6F-4A0B-A532-18A684D43908.jpeg

    I partly thought this could be a clash since there were other typical die clash marks on the coin.

    Here are some photos of the actual clashing this coin has:
    3FF2CC33-C0D0-4A24-A3D4-218BEA28EC27.jpeg
    6CEBD36C-F5FF-429F-9239-16308170940F.jpeg
    901A2AB8-4E8F-412A-9D69-02FB9DC61B22.jpeg
    B081722B-14D3-4E16-9AE0-CB0C1EA5ED0C.jpeg
     
  20. Pickin and Grinin

    Pickin and Grinin Well-Known Member

    After the comments, it is PIDT.
    Great Photos Soren.
     
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