PCGS Overpriced vs NGC

IMHO, PCGS slabs are more because they a traded on the NASDAQ and have to provide more ROE for the shareholders...just a thought.

 

Log in or Sign up to hide this ad.

Hmmm? What would be easier for a PCGS grader than to upgrade a coin that grades 69 by the other top tier TPG?
As far as it making sense: If someone who works at PCGS (or NGC for that matter) sent in coins he purchased in NGC slabs that graded MS/PF 69 and had them upgraded to MS/PF 70 by PCGS, is there any doubt about the increased value? If there is any doubt, you need look no further tan the 1995 - 1996 Atlanta Centennial Olympic coins. Try getting one of the proof 70 coins for for less that 10 to 20 times what the PF 69 sells for.
I am sorry I said anything. It was not to disparage PCGS. I was simply relaying something that was said to me. Something that I thought pertinent to the thread. Yes, it is hearsay. And no, it would not hold up in court.

 

Here are the facts as I know them:

1. Has an employee or owner of a TPGS ever upgraded a coin from one service to another. ABSOLUTELY, it has happened tens of thousands of times due to gradeflation.

2. Has an employee or owner of a TPGS ever upgraded a coin for himself or a favorite client from one service to another? What do you think .

In spite of rumors, actual cases, or if it never happens these are some things you'll need to consider. TPGS, their owners and graders have reputations. You can ruin a business by dishonesty and greed. Leaving out the changes in grading standards over time, there is wiggle room for grading "liners." An honest evaluation may get an upgrade. However, you cannot make a solid MS-62 into an MS-63 and get away with it for long. As a coin's grade gets higher and the price spread gets larger (while there is more incentive to raise a grade for ill gotten profit) there is actually less chance of this happening very much due to the stricter interpretation of the higher grade. That's why coins with large price spreads are more often penalized in grade if compared to the same state of preservation of a common example. Furthermore, this example of buying MS-69 modern coins and upgrading them is virtually a myth. When a reputable TPGS grades a coin MS-69 IT IS NOT AND WILL NEVER BE A 70! More often than not the coin will either down grade or cross at the same grade. I could go on and on but it is late and I'll let others comment.

 

Exactly. You don't ruin multi-million dollar companies over making a few bucks here and there

Also a point that is largely ignored when discussing grading and a very good point. The bigger the price spread the tighter the grading

 

What's the highest circulation-intended coin you've ever had slabbed, assuming you do? I have sent in two to NGC that got 68's, and a whole bunch, maybe 20 of them, MS67's. To me, that's my nirvana type modern stuff, not the stuff that comes in capsules and dead Velour hides.

 

Think of it as a bass ackwards "employee discount".

"No, you have to pay the same as anyone else, but just put an orange dot at the upper right of the flips or crossing slabs, and the graders will know to give them the 'wink, wink, nudge, nudge' treatment."

Do I think this DOES happen? No. But from the way PCGS differentially treats "insiders" vs. "outsiders", the idea becomes instantly plausible.

 

Look, dealers probably can't see this, because they're both too close to it and the beneficiaries of it, but PCGS has an image problem among rank and file collectors. Their over-the-top elitism is starting to grow a backlash. They need to work on their people skills, unless being completely and exclusively dealer-focused is okay with them. I find every iota of interacting with PCGS' staff an utterly irritating experience.

 

Mostly AMEN, but some of their people are the exception.

 

The highest I've ever managed is a 65; I can't afford coins in higher grades given what I collect, and even if I did I'd probably keep them raw anyway.

Getting anything newer than your own age into a 68 slab is an accomplishment to be proud of. Moderns in that range are scarce indeed, and worth every effort to acquire.

 

I agree with you about the buying the coin before the plastic.

 

I would argue that the difference in prices comes from marketing alone. Instacollectors, i.e. people with too much money who want to put some in "rare" coins or whatnot, see the brand that PCGS has created and that drives the prices up especially for high end, R-5,6,7 type pieces or condition rarities. None of this affects the "average" collector too much as people who know coins, will always be able to cherry pick the raw or the unattributed in slabs, be able to evaluate the coins and buy the coin not the slab. I have a mix of PCGS, NGC, and ANACs slabs, except for my Washington Quarters registry set with NGC, most of which I picked raw and then had slabbed.

 

Absolutely correct in every nuance! The same is true for nearly everything associated with numismatics. Supply tends to be fixed. Demand varies, and demand varies based on trends, fads, and disinformation, aka marketing.

 

I buy the coin not the slab. As far as I am concerned NGC and PCGS are both good.

 

I don't know that a coin graded MS/PF 69 has never been regraded at 70. I have 'heard' that it has been done. But I am not an insider so I can't say for sure. I can say that many are influenced by profit and greed and if a few dollars can be had by an "insider" why not? Who's to know? I know I have a few coins graded 70 that some of my more experienced friends would say that they are not (in their opinion). I have no doubt that they could find a flaw. That goes for NGC and PCGS. I have heard many times over that grading is subjective; just an opinion. I have sent coins to NGC in a PCGS slab for a crossover at MS/PF 70. They did not crossover. Maybe it's one of those MS/PF 69's that were upgraded by PCGS.

 

While talking with a collector friend (I believe him), the one and only time I have heard of this was a common SE. We believed the only reason it happened was the only defect we could find on the coin was a tiny, round, gray spot on a wing. That makes the coin a 69. Either it was not seen by the new graders (possible but I always want to know why a perfect looking coin is downgraded and I'd keep looking) and given the upgrade OR which is more likely IMO:

Since it happened after the TPGS no longer guarantees SE against spotting the coin was upgraded to make a customer happy and to get the coin out of the competitor's slab.

 

The result of this experiment should be interesting. I am hoping you do more than just letting us know the outcome: maybe start a thread and invite others to tell their experience with submissions of a third-party slabbed coin to another TPG.

I know I am repeating what others have said above about their purchases of slabbed coins but my approach is: 1. I buy the coin not the holder; 2. I will buy a coin I like in any third-party slab; 3. I do own PCGS coins but I typically do not purchase them because I do not want to pay more for a PCGS holder when I may purchase a similar or better coin in a NGC or other holder for less, sometimes much less.

As far as answering the question raised in this thread, NGC and PCGS are clearly superior to other TPG but as far as which is better: flip a coin.*

*Heads is NGC; Tails is PCGS. The winner will change as often as a coin lands heads or tails.

 

I don,t favor one to the other, but I do like to keep groups or date runs in the same slabs, just for ease and appearance, if for no other reason...I pay the lower of the two prices if I can. When the price diff. is extreme, I go for the lesser, assuming they actually do grade the same. I prefer to pay an honest price, so I always average the TPG,s prices with actual auction winning bids to arrive at my fair offer. I also like ANACS slabs for die varieties, errors, etc.

 

I tend to use NGC to grade coins, but prefer PCGS over NGC. Sound like a contradiction? As a member of the ANA I can submit coins to NGC without joining a "club"and pay "dues" a to submit coins to PCGS. PCGS tends to have a better rep with classical coins while NGC tends toward more modern coins (although they're trying for the ancient market with "NGC Ancients), ANACS has a niche in the VAM and error area (and they are a heck of a lot cheaper) and come to smaller coin shows. I do like the fact that, especially in the Baseball Hall of Fame series, PCGS used living members and their actual signatures, while NGC opted for facsimile signatures of the more classical (and dead) members. Our local club is having a show Nov. 4-6 and ANACS is sending a Rep, PCGS and NGC declined.

Having said that, people move from working for NGC to PCGS and vice versa all the time. ICG and ANACS basically traded their companies completely - graders, owners, locations, etc., just switched one company for the another.

The grey sheet rates the TPGS in this order (I'm just going to list their average percentage): PCGS- 82.46%, NGC- 82.34%, ANACS- 65.98%, and ICG- 66.83%. In the end though, cost aside for the service, I still believe, "Buy the coin not the slab" holds for all of the big four companies, keeping in mind that PCGS holders tend to bring more money than NGC holders and companies selling graded coins tend to charge more for PCGS than NGC. Just MHO.

 

I think PCGS should slab actual fabric swatches from Dave Hall's ugly Hawaiian shirts. It only makes sense after slabbing their own medal.

 

Just curious...What is the YEAR that Greysheet you mention was published with these percentages? AFAIK while looking at a batch of Graysheets just now there is no mention of percentages