The "P" word! What does it mean?

I've enjoyed participating in this "Coin Talk" forum for a little over a week now and I love it! I look forward to checking in two or three times a day to read or contribute to one of the new threads and reading the new posts. There are many very accomplished ancients collectors on this site and my knowledge is microscopic by comparison!

Provenance—the "P" word
It's time for me to bring up the topic which most worries me and that is—What kind of impact will the "proof of provenance" requirements have on ancient coin collecting in the United States? Are the laws likely to get more strict? Will it one day be illegal to buy and sell ancient coins that have no pedigree paperwork accompanying them? Most of my coins have no proof of provenance paperwork. Fairly recently, I have started purchasing my "Biblical" coins from dealers in Israel because they include an export document from the Israel Antiquities Authority. I've been reluctant to purchase "orphaned" coins in this country. I need to hear your thoughts.

Example: This is my "orphaned" Azes II silver tetradrachm (unknown pedigree)

 

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Not much. Truth be told, 99% of coins have next to no provenance, and a highly expensive provenance search through one of those "Find the Provenance" services will find zero provenance, or nothing before the late 1990s or early 2000's.

Why? Because before digital photography became so cheap and easy to use, and especially before the internet became so advanced, most auction catalogs did not contain photos, except for a handful of "high value" coins. So if you are purchasing coins in the $1000+ price range, yeah, chances are you can find old provenance for it. But for a $50-200 coin...good luck!

You are concerned about provenance for cheap coins, start making your own. For example, when you sell your coin, send your ticket to the buyer with the date you bought it, or the sale date. Also include whatever provenance you get on your coins in your ticket in case the old provenance gets lost you can at least have the record for it in your ticket, so the new owner can refer to it. So save any old tickets that come with your coin, or at least record the provenance in your ticket if you won't save the old one.

Also note that coins sold through private parties (ie. one collector to another) you will not be able to find any provenance for that online searching some auction house catalog, so record it in the coin ticket so future owners can have that provenance.

It's as simple as this:

Caracalla
Roman Empire
AR Denarius
Obverse: blah blah blah
Reverse: blah blah blah
Reference: lalala
Ex: David Cameron (2010)
Ex: Deacon Ray (2014)
Ex: Sallent (2016)
Ex: Donald Trump (2016)

There, we just created some provenance for a future collector to know and show where his coin came from.

 

Not knowing ancients that well and seeing the "P" in your title, which I saw the reverse of your coin you know what went through my mind.

 

I received several emails from an Israeli dealer that states as of March of this year all antiquities dealers must submit their final inventory to the government and no new inventory will be allowed. So basically once his inventory is gone, he is out of business. I have not looked into it, but I assume he is accurate.

 

if that's the case, buy them up and bring them to America, and don't sell your coins out of America.

 

I have watched what he had for years but never bought any as I felt he charged too much, mainly bulk by the kilogram.

 

I certainly think we will see more and more types come under the umbrella of various MOUs in the future but I doubt we'll ever see any requirement of provenance to transfer coins within the US. As it stands right now there are requirements for the import of certain pre-denarius types as well as various Roman colonial types, but once the coin is in the US, there's no requirement to show proof of legal importation or provenance if it's transferred to another collector within the US.

The problem with these laws is that they really are not practically enforceable. They are a stumbling block to collectors who want to remain law-abiding citizens, but at the end of the day the customs official who sees a customs form that just says "coin" or "collectable" or "numismatic material" and the value has no idea whether it's covered by an MOU or not and I doubt your average customs agent cares enough to examine every coin that comes through. I've only ever had a single coin held up and examined in customs and it was also the only coin I've ever had a dealer put a full description of on the customs form(and one I won't work with again for that reason because now my mail carrier knows exactly what the small packages I receive are). Every other coin I've bought from overseas just said "coin" or something similarly vague.

 

I pretty much only buy coins that are already in the us because of all these rules. There are the rules of the country of origin and also the us own rules you can fall afoul of.

 

Unfortunately yes. The Israeli government has decided to crack down on us evil coin collectors. But a part of me wonders if it's a ploy to drive up prices.

 

LOL! That's pretty funny! I assure you I didn't see that before you mentioned I'll!

 

My experience was the same this last May. Order took 9 weeks to get to me as they were starting the whole changeover. Now they can only sell existing inventory, and cannot replenish. I feel sorry for the Israeli Dealers as they are all being shut down...

 

Actually, David, I understand that the dealers in Israel cannot export any coins that were found after 1978.

 

Naw, I buy from all over. I even bought some Canadian Gold Pucks from @stevex6 ! What a deal!

 

Good idea!

 

All of America, right?

 

Yes, I've read that there is some of that going on also. Actually the antiquities export dealers have quite a bit of influence in Israel.

 

Apparently the government claims there are 'loopholes'.
http://www.timesofisrael.com/in-new...orities-tighten-noose-around-dealers-thieves/
It seems some maybe acquired through questionable means, which yes will raise prices if you are only allowed to resell what is currently available.

 

Yeah, and we need to ensure Paraguay is covered too...

 

Oz,

I am sure you placed Trump in there as a joke, but we need to understand that honestly there are some names out there that we might all recognize. I have sold to many 'celebrities'. Most you might know (yup, politicians, actors, bankers, musicians, etc). Some lesser known, but sadly, nearly all of them made me sign non-disclosure agreements (not the scholars). I dont know why. Likely just a boiler plate concept from their idiotic advisors. Dont they realize they can get more money for their coins when they sell if it was provenanced (just say for sake of argument, Brad Pitt? No, I never sold to him, but bigger names than him).

I guess the point is that sometimes provenance will only be recorded by those who wish it to be so.