Why would large auction house...

I can assure you that Auction companies are dealers too in most cases. At least the ones I ve known and they are now collectors with the ability to see all bids . This was shut down in New and Used Car Dealerships and it will be shut down in the coin hobby. Americans are logical. Sometime slow and we may want to look the other way but in the end we get it right.

 

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Over an extended period I purchased many relatively expensive only TPG certified Gold coins through the auctions, and learned the techniques used.

I adequately explained some unacceptable processes implemented, where the buyer is believed to be victimized without recourse. Hugh concurred with my findings, as have others in various public threads posted in the past, which could be subpoenaed to court.

It's understood that objective adjudication may find some of your statements incorrect in a litigious process. Only a discovery process would determine your potential as a credible defense witness.

JMHO

 

I know auction firms also buy coins to sell as dealers. Heritage is one. The point I was making is that when someone buys a coin from an auction house in an auction, there is no reason to expect a return privilege. If this is what you are expecting, its unlikely I would agree with you unless the listing was intentionally misrepresented (fraud) or blatantly wrong, such as when I bought a coin as a proof but it was graded as a business strike.

The rest of this post of yours wasn't part of my argument against your claim, since you didn't even bring it up before in this topic, though you presumably have elsewhere.

 

Hugh has been coached to not specifically rebut in a public forum as he did in his most recent post. It's understood that these challenges/rebuttals possibly diminish opportunities to show biases against victims.

Without the public plaintiff challenges, individuals as yourself would be allowed to supply absolute proof of your public STATEMENT: "Auction firms are not dealers. As a buyer, if you want a return privilege, then buy from a dealer or eBay." et al, in discovery depositions.

Hopefully, Hugh will learn not to present public arguments, but merely questions or past proceeding updates that won't affect future efforts.

JMHO

 

Hugh,

When you quote another member, do try and be sure your response is typed outside of or separate from theirs. When you don't do so, it is unnecessarily/needlessly difficult for the reader to have to dig through two now-combined posts in order to find what you've written. Just a friendly and respectful suggestion, sir.

 

I am not attempting to present my points from a strictly legal point of view which is what you are doing in your replies.

I am somewhat new to this forum (a few months) and don't have any familiarity with your prior experience if that is what you are referencing here. Regardless, going by another topic where both of us posted on a related subject, since I understand you are an attorney going by your verbiage, it's likely you and I have an irreconcilable difference of opinion and that you would disqualify me as a juror in selecting a panel.

I don't know all of the facts in your situations, the relevant statutes or case precedent though I am capable of understanding it if necessary. What I am attempting to apply in my replies is basic common sense.

Why would I think that auction firms should be treated as dealers where buyers should automatically expect (much less receive) a return privilege? If this is the practice in the past, its complete news to me. I have already agreed with both of you that its appropriate in limited circumstances (including maybe a few more I didn't list here) but nothing more. That's why its called an auction and I totally disagree it should be treated as a retail sale.

I have never consigned to a public auction (only sold on eBay) but if I did, I'm not interested in having the coin returned just because the buyer didn't like the item or realized they overpaid. I see that that as their problem and not the consignors, regardless of the coin value.

How exact auction firms (such as Heritage) should describe lots is a matter of opinion and you can litigate this issue if you choose. Going by your sentiments, what you are attempting to accomplish would create substantial uncertainty for consigners and potentially much higher market risk due to changing market conditions, given the time from consignment to payment.

If this is what you are proposing, I believe this will make it impractical, uneconomical or both to consigners to sell their coins through auctions. Additionally, if this did happen, it would also potentially result in lower prices across the board due to decreased liquidity from less competition. I don't care about this but I know many others do.

 

I would suggest before you make statements (i.e. not opinions) that you learn more about this firm that seemingly professes crem de la crem knowledge in Numismatics selection for sales of associated products. Their "premiums" are supposedly reflective of their selections capability.

If you'd objectively researched Hughs postings on this site, you would probably determined that he has been seriously involved in litigation with "HA".

I was just a client who had extensive expensive transactions with the firm, with them as a private auctioning firm, and an internet auction seller where they accept returns. I stopped transacting with the firm when they violated normally understood private auction terms, but I continued with internet sales where they performed properly.

They later tried a tactic which was generally known throughout the industry to violate state statutes, in an attempt to ensnare a relatively large value of premium certified numismatic Gold coins. I complied until written proof of violation was established, verbal challenge was established, and they reneged on written promises, withdrawing transactions in the state. The coins weren't sent, eliminating action for damages, but at an appropriate time, with additional statute violations shown which were common to others, Federal action can possibly be initiated.

I believe you could determine that public documented statements of fact, believed inaccurate, can be established as reason for subpoena, depositions, in an appropriate legal action.

JMHO

 

I am not siding with Heritage and my prior claims don't indicate any lack of objectivity. If you want to point me to the links where this has been covered before, I can certainly read it.

In this topic, I didn't see any distinction in your posts between retail and auction transactions or between consignor and buyer. You are also now bringing up a violation of a written contract. Given that this is the first I have seen this here, how exactly am I supposed to know it?

What I was disputing is the inference that auction sales should be treated as a form of retail transaction. If any part of either of your disputes include this argument, I don't agree, except in limited circumstances as I explained before. Otherwise, I don't see merit to this position, partly because it's ultimately almost certainly going to adversely impact the interests of the consignor who is the third party in the transaction.

If this isn't your dispute, then I am mistaken but that's what I interpreted from both of your prior posts.

 

I'm sorry that I discussed matters which appear beyond your scope of comprehension, as I was misled by the believed statement that you had sold in internet auctions, and may have at least a minimal understanding of buyers statutory rights, regardless of contractual agreement. I provided an overview, and suggested as a pseudo-juror you might utilize resources to understand.

I believe a contract may be overridden by legal statutes/laws. I'll try to provide a simple analogy which you may understand. If you and I sign an agreement that I can have intimate relations with your 12 year daughter, the contract doesn't constitute legality of action.

As in proceedings previously discussed more than believed necessary, jurists may find exception to your understandings and statements.

JMHO

 

I am completely lost here.

I still don't understand any of this.

Plain English explanation please.

 

I'm sorry, as pure English/diction/semantics/legalese is my primary language. I haven't yet fully learned acronyms, chat acronyms, netlingo, IM shorthand, guttural english, etc., so a "failure to communicate" may continue to exist.

Now, if you want to converse in Numismatics, about coins, we may speak the "same language".

I've typed slowly, with like-kind respective relative brevity, Enough Said!!

JMHO

 

Yipes... This is a hobby to relax in... :-(

 

All I've pieced together is that someone didn't like something that Heritage Auctions did. So far this doesn't interest me.

 

I've discovered my communicating issue. Still called typing on an I phone at 59. So I'd appreciate it if you would quit calling me a dumb ass in laymen terms.
You guys have confused this issue by design I'm Sure.
If I told you a bank had just been robbed, would you say something like this
Gee, did they take 10's or 20's? Did they get any Christmas club account funds? I hope they did get my the notes!
HA are owned by middle class gentlemen that may make it one day if they will get out of their own way. They aren't that super intelligent , obviously.
I think this is a rap unless someone else wants to add something.
Thanks,
Hugh
Ps you guys missed the boat on my experience. Nothing was small about it. Coins , commitments . 2 years crossing state lines to con me..
Coins valued over $100,000 each . Over 1,000 coins sold and bought by ha without ever discussing them buying coins in Lou of auction. Locked me out of company while several days of auctions where still being held. Deleted all records and sales history.
Holding for almost a year after purchase and wouldn't turn over my coins the value about the size of an average signature auction.,
I had to hire forinsic accountants and pay them while HA played games writing invoices you can't read.no serial numbers. I had less than one year experience and they bumped me from 10,000 a sale to $500,000 with terms that didn't matter at the time. Pay when I wanted. Of course
Everything changed when all of the owners together as a team attacked me. not in A physical way but by not speaking to me in over 3 years. Taking stored coins and selling or buying at what ever price they wanted.... And I'm getting sick I have to stop here for today.

 

Sorry if I was dismissive. I really only meant to point out that the statements were so intentionally vague and roundabout that the rest of us could not follow along. It must be hard to talk about legal matters without compromising them.

 

This matter is not beyond my comprehension. I don't have to be a lawyer to know that statutes can or do over ride contracts. I can and do know it.

You may be right, I don't know but you certainly haven't provided a reason to agree with you right here other than because you claim you are a victim. If you have a pending case which hasn't been filed or resolved, why would anyone agree with you until it is resolved in your favor?

If you aren't interested in exchanging posts here, it's fine with me. I don't care either way whether you are right or not. It's also irrelevant to me whether you ever do or don't recover a dime of any loss you incurred.

If the coin in your avatar is representative of what you buy, I don't collect at this level. But if I did, going by your posts I have read on this subject since I joined this forum, I wouldn't want to buy from you or sell to you anyway.

 

I'm a little lost here too... My only experience with HA is with internet auctions. Per their terms and conditions they have a return privilege with a restocking fee. I recently bid on and won an item that turned out to be incorrectly listed both on the slab and in the listing (a Massachusetts Cent listed as a Half Cent). I caught the mistake before they shipped it and rightfully got a full refund with no restocking fee. Unlike Hugh I'm not dealing in any high dollar items though.

 

Personally since starting this project to bring 100% honesty back to the coin hobby I can say I am seeing some improvement. Here is what I see.
Major grading companies have heard us and are focusing on better consistent grading and quality of opinions.
Third party grading companies management focused on quality of opinions and partners. I think everyone realizes we are ALL their partners not just a few.
Access to historical records and review is on top of mind of many.
Best practices considered by industry
Reminder of importance of reputations
I think we have political power on our side and change is becoming mandatory.
The majority in industry want it clean and safe for all.
Organized Honesty as oppose to Organized crime in my opinion is mind set of community.
Now I admit I may be off on what I think, however there are reasons to be encouraged.
Regards,
Hugh

 

To both Hugh and 'rich:

If I am reading you right, you want us to know that there is at least one major auction company out there that does NOT act in a thoroughly "arm's length" manner and instead they mix the functions of broker and buyer in their own sales, often to the detriment of the consignor.

At some risk, I'll speak for SOME OF US, but not all: We have known this for a long, long time, and have incorporated it into our strategies and tactics when dealing with those firms. I wish you had done so, too. It appears you were not prepared for this. If a court feels this is actionable, I wish you well. However, almost no one, with the exception of the two of you, believes discussing the issues here is useful or valuable to your cause.

 

We have had four years of begging for help. I have had 0 interest from any government , collector , company, auction house, club house, legal asso, church group, Amazon, Walmart , hunting club or you offer 1 penny or one second of help.
An alarm was rung 4 years ago.
Lip service is of no use and you using my discussion to promote your agenda is of know value.
You sir will not shut me up.
So if you want help get on you bicycle and come see me otherwise keep your advise to yourself or your thread.