How Low Will You Stoop?

Hey guys, Bill and I are friends not only on the forum but in real life. We've occasionally engaged in some light-hearted sparring, so y'all need to lighten up about his post. It was not meant as a criticism against any of you or your collecting interests.

He's got some nerve though, right? Considering those fishing weights he collects.

 

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Ardy-har-har

 

I collect Probus from Lugdunum. Coins from the 5th issue have more elaborate busts than are usually see from Lugdunum and these coins are always sought after. I will stoop quite low for these as you can see.

Obv:– VIRTVS PROBI AVG, Radiate, helmeted, cuirassed bust left, holding spear and shield, seen from back
Rev:– TEMPOR FELICI, Felicitas standing right, holding caduceus and cornucopiae
Minted in Lugdunum (//I) Emission 5 Officina 1. End A. D. 277 to Early A.D. 278
Reference:– RIC 106. Cohen -, Bastien 210 (11 examples cited)



Obv:– IMP C PROBVS AVG, Radiate cuirassed bust left with spear over right shoulder
Rev:– TEMPOR FELICIT, Felicitas standing right, holding caduceus and cornucopiae
Minted in Lugdunum (II in exe) Emission 8 Officina 2. Autumn to Late A.D. 281
Reference:– Cohen -. Bastien -. RIC 108 (Rare)
Obverse die match to the plate coin in RIC

 

This is a good example of how I am confused by RR bronzes. Correct me if I am missing something. This coin is special because of its weight. The two you link are over 30g. One 'reference' I enjoy is the Vecchi 3 sale catalog but it lists no post semi-libral semis. It does have a "trias" lot 71 at 26.49g a full 10g heavier than the other examples cataloged the same. Sextantal semises (lots 101 through 111) range from 13.19g to 25.13g. I get lost when weights are the only way to tell one Crawford listing from another but the range from light to heavy in a series is several times greater than spacing between one series and the next. Certainly I agree that a semis that large is a special item but it appears the weight standards were more fluid than our system properly represents. That would suggest to me that a set of semises might need many more representatives than one post semi-libral and one sextantal. Can the coins be dated by weight? Is the Vecchi 25g coin the earliest of its series or did the mint just apply next to no weight control measures?

 

My comment was meant to be light hearted too..... dry humour doesnt work well when not face to face....

 

I tend to buy the best I can afford, but sometimes I get impatient. While this coin is not rare they do not come up for sale very often. When they do, the nice examples go for a lot of money. Yes it is a very worn posthumous portrait denarius and it will do until I can find a lifetime issue that I like. Having said that, I like the coin very much. I think the portrait is very good considering the overall condition of the coin.

 

Here are two examples of how low I have gone.




I would be shocked if anyone knows (or cares) why these two are of any interest.

 

That defines me as well LOL

I like that denarius a lot!! Sure it's worn, but it's a portrait most of us crave...and an upgrade is always possible.

Here a 'budget' example of the popular Caesar/Elephant type---- too 'impatient' to wait until my budget was replenished ....

 

Hmmm, So far I'm unable to 'shock' you 'V' LOL

I care but I don't seem to see anything unusual...But I'm a bit ignorant LOL

 

Well I was either joking, or I have suddenly become irrationally angry at the people who collect Constantinian bronzes. Which do you think is more likely?

You've hung out here a little bit, but maybe you didn't notice that we like to joke and rib each other a bit. Maybe you didn't notice that I'm one of the worst offenders when it comes to passionately collecting cheap junk. And you almost definitely didn't read the rest of my post, where I praised OP for putting care and effort into a collection regardless of its market value.

We're all friends here. Try to take the positive view next time!

 

If you wish to cheat, they are in my Forvm Gallery.

http://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-73335

http://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-54450

 

Signals received and read correctly. Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go catalog a lot of egg sinkers.

 

I admit to having cheated. I had no idea why those were special. It turns out they are very interesting coins. Thanks for posting these.

 

The second I wouldn't have noticed without 'research' but the first struck me as defined on the link...since I recently noticed a Vespasian with a reverse of Titus and Domitian that have the same characteristics---and struck in Rome. I'm trying to be vague and not reveal the answers for those who enjoy challenges

 

DENMARK, Eric (VII) of Pomerania
Sterling (3 Penning)
OBVERSE: Crown, ERICVS REX D S N
REVERSE: cross potent, MONETA LVNDENSE
Struck at Lund mint (Lund, Skåne (now Sweden), c.1413-1420
0.65, 16mm
Galster 9

 

These are such an important part of Roman history, particularly in the transition from Republic to Empire, that I would buy any and all examples as good as yours.

 

Ya! I was tweaking my catalog...no new lots...just fixing some notes, changing some colors. Just a little token catalog maintenance.

 

My post late last night certainly didn't do this coin justice so I'll try to answer your question here and give some background on how this coin fits into the arrangement. I'm typing this from my phone without the luxury of having references in front of me, but I'll try and come back and correct any mistakes later tonight. First, a few notes on Crawford numbers: 38, 41 and 56 are the standard Second Punic War-era fully anonymous bronze series which include one or more struck denominations identified by Crawford, generally termed "semilibral", "post-semilibral" and "sextantal", respectively. Crawford arranges these by average weight but does not attempt to subdivide them in style, although later authors such as Andrew McCabe and Roberto Russo have for instance divided these into further groupings using primarily style along with average weight.

The reason style is so important is that the Romans at the end of the day didn't care about individual coin weights much at all. Average weight can be used to build a bigger picture but cannot be used as the sole factor for determining where a single coin fits into the picture in many cases. For this you need to look at engraving style and weight combined. In the case of the 41/6e semis I shared the average weight for the type is about 30-40 grams and Russo further identified the fact that for the small number of known dies of these heavy semisses, the dotted border are always of greater diameter than of the lighter 56 series"sextantal" semisses. I believe the difference was something obvious, like the smallest "post semilibral" semis dotted border was greater in diameter than the largest "sextantal" semis border by 3mm or so - significant enough to tell the two apart. In addition these heavier semisses exhibit a particular engraving style which is different than any known examples of the lighter "sextantal" semisses, though this is a much more subjective criteria that is difficult for me to illustrate without photos.

Now, how does my semis factor into this equation? It is lighter, considerably, than the average weight at just under 19 grams. It is however a die match to the much heavier semisses identified by Russo and factoring in wear and corrosion, the starting weight was likely at least a few grams more than its current weight.

Like I said, I'm typing this out quickly from my phone while drinking my mid-morning coffee, but I'll certainly revisit the subject either here or via PM later if you have any further questions. The short answer to your question is that at the end of the day, average weight and style are the important determining factors but I'll add a caveat that it gets more complex than that when factoring in certain overstrikes and imitative coinage and and the fact that as new work has shown, even within a given weight standard, further subdivisions can be found using style as the determining factor. While there has been a lot of good work done in the past two decades in this area, there is still more to be done.

 

Free gifts from my detector friend , the Netherlands is full of Roman coins , especially around the roman Limes border , the riverbanks of the Rhine.

 

Nice finds @Andres2 ....

There's just something cool and 'romantic' about being the first in so many centuries to once again look upon and hold a coin lost and buried for all that time. I understand it was a common practice for the Romans to throw coins into rivers as they passed over them to appease the river gods etc...Imagine what may still be there ----somewhere LOL