Most Expensive British Coin

So I see. Did you have a wee look at the video ive posted above.
Its a rough cut. The full pilot is 45minutes

 

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You cannot compare British to US coins to conclude they are financially undervalued.

There are various reasons why one coin sells for one price and another at a much lower or higher one. The scarcity and story line in this case do not explain why this Edward VIII sovereign sells for so much less than the US 1794 PCGS SP-66 dollar since I know this is the coin you are comparing it to.

The fact is, British coins are already among the most expensive in the world. I gave an example of the recent price performance of the 1839 British proof 5S and you already admitted that this coin last sold for 40,000 GBP. How much more do think these coins should be worth?

Outside of US coins, to my knowledge only Australian and maybe Russian are more expensive than British. US collectors are already big buyers (proportionately) of the better and more expensive coins because I know that British buyers don't prefer TPG coins to anywhere near the extent or else I would see them in non-US auctions more often.

Elsewhere, the great rarities sell for less than US and British equivalents (almost always a lot less) because there is little or no "investment" market in practically any other country and collectors aren't used to paying very high prices, so they don't.

Contrary to what many (particularly US) collectors also apparently believe, the most expensive coins aren't cheap either versus many other collectible fields. Yes, the prices are lower than say, a Rembrandt or Picasso but then, there isn't a coin on the planet where anyone except a coin buyer would ever think they are in the same league in terms of significance.

 

This thread is chock full of self-promotion by our new member, Mr. Lott. Interpret that how you will.

It's an historically interesting coin, but who comes to a forum to brag about such a purchase...? And, who bought the coin, Mark Manning -- or Jordan Lott -- or a conglomerate company -- as an investment? Something doesn't quite add up here...

Maybe the coin will soon be put back on the market, and this is a first go at hype and advertising?

 

I seem to have got off on the wrong foot with you

Nothing personal, I assure you. It is simply that following a paper trail from your original post leads to many things inconsistent with with a wealthy collector.

 

Hi all
I'm sorry I ever answered the post
I promise never to mention relative values, investment or anything to do with a coin having any intrinsic value except for its metal content
And not the Sovereign is not coming back to the market any time soon

However
Look at the post above for the link to a very short pilot.

I am going to produce a Coin Documentary which was why I came to CoinTalk in the first place.
I have forty or so good stories based on particular coins and am looking for more.
The coin itself must have History
The story must be of general interest
The story needs a hook to catch the audience
If it came into your or the owners hands in a interesting/exciting way
To give you an example

1703 Vigo 5 Guinea
Sir Admrial Rook Capture of Gibraltar Failure to capture Cadiz
Battle of Vigo bay
Capture of Spanish and French Men o war
Capture of Gold and Silver from the Americas
Triumphant return to Queen Anne
Sir Isaac Newton and the modernization of the mint
Only 20 5 Guineas struck
Possibly 7 know to exist
Widow finds one in late husbands sock draw
Gets £300,000 at auction

That's a great COIN STORY
Put your thinking caps on and post some ideas please
Jordan

 

Click on the link below to a very short teaser

 

A few ideas: 1. Thomas Simons, the Petition Crown, and it's role in bringing about milled coinage over hammered in England. 2. The 8 reales coins produced in the New World and their role in world trade involving Asia, the Americas , and Asia. 3. The 1456 Guldengroschen and how changed coins for the next 500 years.

 

Aboard the Queen Mary in 1936. For most Americans, the guy is an unknown but then few Americans would recognize who Calvin Coolidge was either.

 

I agree that there is no comparison between the two, though I do think the story line supports the much higher price for the 1794 than this one. Plus proofs never seem to get the extra condition price bump non proofs seem to get. That said I couldn't agree more that that coin is in no way shape or forum proof the British price wasn't high enough

 

Just wondering, are you on many other sites? Welcome to CoinTalk.

 

Hi Thanks
Nos 1&2 are in my list for obvious reasons
Ill look at your last suggestion
Jordan

 

Hi Thanks for the welcome
Not really just saw the post asking about Ed VIII coins and replied.
That said I do want to engage with the coin world to get ideas for the documentary
Jordan

 

Jordan, if you have any financial attachment to the coin company mentioned, the show itself, or for appearing on the show, discontinue the types of posts that have occurred as self promotion in general forums is a violation and will have consequences. Thanks, Jim

 

OK goodbye
I think 1st time and last on a forum
Sorry I had no idea this was an issue
Will not make any more posts
Thanks for the advice Jim

 

Something about that picture told me right away things would end this way lol. In all seriousness, coins like that don't appeal to me. Those kinds of coins are what noncollectors think I'm in awe of and seek. I'm always asked if I'm rich because I say I'm a coin collector, yet the funny thing is I hardly spend at all. I try to make some profit here and there, save some of the lot, and reinvest in more. This way my hobby is almost self supporting. At most, I probably spend away 100-200 dollars a month on coins. My purchases would seem extravagant to a 8 year old with his parent's allowance. However, in comparison to the OP I think I'm wealthier in different ways, and thankfully my spending is in accord with my mindset.

 

One last post
I now have looked at forum rules and understand more of your guidelines, however I don’t want to fall foul of any rules as I really do need to promote the documentary.
I'll set up a website where anyone can post without any comeback or stress or upset anyone.
I get back to give the address later this week.
So when it's up please visit the site and post your suggestions
Thanks
Jordan

 

I believe the price difference between the two coins is that there are two different types of buyers, regardless that both have "deep pockets".

On many prior occasions, I have compared the price and numismatic merits of different coins, both US and otherwise. I will consider this in what I buy (within my budget) but it is evident that most others do not. Because if they did, then there is no possibility the current US price structure would exist.

Elsewhere, I once listed eight factors which I identified as applicable to the US coin market. Other markets share either few or none of them. The differences that I am aware of between British and US coins are these two. First, there is limited "investment" buying of British coins; It is far less prevalent and to the extent it exists, it includes a substantial American buyer component. Second, US buyers are used to paying higher or much higher prices, so they do.

I can point to any number of US coins where collectors on this forum and others don't bat an eye at what are actually exorbitant prices for such ordinary coins. Many of these sell for near, the same or a lot more than the greatest rarities from elsewhere. The explanation is entirely cultural because it certainly isn't because of their relative merits and collectors elsewhere can certainly pay a lot more if they choose to do so. They just don't.

 

I'd like to respond to this topic as I'm in a little bit of a similar position, having just purchased a semi-expensive British coin as well as believing coins are an exceptional way to portray history. I have the website coinsandhistory[dot]com and am trying to use "historically significant coins" to illustrate critical moments in man's story. Note that the earliest "true coins" date from the 630's to 650's BC; i.e. mid 7th century BCE.

I have to congratulate Mr. Lott on the Ed-8th sovereign and suggest that he see the movie "The King's Speech" which deals a lot with that era & Edward VIII.

Some of the coins on your list I've tried unsuccessfully to buy, such as a decent Syrian tetradrachm of Anthony & Cleopatra, others I've had more luck with. I'm not familiar with hyper-inflation (hiper-inflation is some languages) & Rome's fall in the mid 5th century AD. Recently I've gotten a gold tremissis of Julius Nepos (Roman issue of 474-475 AD) as I wanted to see how close to the actual Fall of the West I can get and a Romulus Augustus (476 AD) is a little pricy.

While it's possible that rare coins will decrease in value I also think they're undervalued compared to other artworks. I'm hardly objective as I have significant assets in old/rare coins. With the advent of the internet and good research, I think much of the stories behind old coins can come to light: enhancing their value.

Tho I've posted these elsewhere, 2 of the 3 coins I got 2 weeks ago are as follows.

England, Charles I, silver 20 shillings (pound), Oxford mint, 1642

I first saw one of these silver pounds in person while viewing lots at Goldberg's Millennium auction in '08 and was impressed. While it's not in superb condition, I like the big clear date as well as the lack of doubling on this one. Now a really nice one is expensive, however, I think this is a pleasant, affordable specimen. Also acquaintances always are offering me Geo III or Geo IV crowns and I wanted something a little different to show off. I need to research the conditions leading to the issuance of these oversized things (4 thalers).

The second coin I'm a bit more knowledgeable about but unfortunately it was not cheap. I had to pay around 7x the ridiculously low estimate.


Brazil, Republic, 2000 reis, 1897 NGC-63

Yes I know the guidebooks say this is "the common date". However I am & have been living in Brazil for the past 3 years and am a member of the Sociedade Numismatica do Brazil. This is the type of the Brazilian Republic's 1st silver crown. NGC census lists the Lissner specimen as better (an MS-65) & this is the 2nd nicest across all dates as a NGC-63. I DID try to buy the Lissner specimen in 2014 and had auction representation. They told me however that the Lissner piece wasn't as nice as the slab and advised me not to bid.

In fact just 2 weeks before getting this one out of Stack's, I ventured into Center City, amid dangerous conditions, to view a supposedly nice one of these. The one I found was "nice" but had a number of problems and I felt that one was, at best a ms-55 to 58. I've run across all 3 years of these in Brazil: the 1891, 96, & 97 but always with problems. Stacks described the lot for me over the phone before I'd bid.

Now I don't buy USA coins as, for the rarity, I believe those are overvalued.

 

This is one of the most surprising and interesting stories I have read on here. Granted, I am a new comer on this forum, however it is one heck of a tale and I doubt that anyone will be topping it anytime soon. I have a few Edward VIII coins, though obviously none of them are gold sovereigns....

 

On what basis do you believe coins are undervalued to other collectible fields?

World and ancient coins are certainly undervalued versus US, but while I expect the gap to close, I don't see that it will significantly for most in a timeframe where it will matter to anyone reading this topic.

For every example someone can cite where coins are supposedly undervalued versus others fields, a counterexample can be found. Usually when I have read these claims, its a comparison to master paintings or modern art such as a Picasso.

These artists are world famous, even if people don't know every single piece. Despite any claim to fame, no coin including the 1804 dollar remotely meets this criteria. When collecting was a lot more prominent in American culture, maybe a lot more people knew about it (and some others) but recently except when a sale makes the national press or is seen on the internet, I don't believe these coins (or any others) are familiar to most people at all.

Not only is the public not aware of them locally, they aren't even known to collectors outside their own country, for the most part. Long time foreign collectors probably know about the 1804 dollar, 1913 LHN and maybe the 1933 Saint and 1794 dollar. The latter two, only because of recent sales and the legal action for the first one. I don't believe they have ever heard of others such as the 1849 double eagle but whether they have or not, don't hold any of them in anywhere near the same regard as US collectors do anyway. This is even more true of far less prominent coins which US collectors think are such a big deal, such as exorbitantly overpriced "grade rarities" and obscure coins from specialization. And what I am describing, it applies in both directions in and out of the US.

So the question then becomes, if any coin is only held in such high esteem by collectors in its local market and even then, by a small segment of the collector population, why would anyone else think that highly of them either?

The most prominent items from collectible fields such as art or antique cars are status symbols. No coin is a status symbol except to another coin collector. Art works also have an advantage through promotion in academic curriculum which is unlikely to ever happen for any coin. The most prominent artwork is unique while most coins were mass produced and even if not, almost always have dozens, hundreds, thousands and more survivors. "Uniqueness" defined by TPG grade or some specialization is irrelevant to anyone except another collector and even then, only a very low number.

The supposed "history" with practically any coin is also grossly exaggerated. Other than being struck in the past at a particular time and place, most coins have no actual history whatsoever because they had nothing to do with contemporary or subsequent events. This is especially true of the most expensive coins which by definition are in the highest quality and for the most part either sat in some cabinet or survived in their current state by accident. The "history" almost exclusively exists only in the minds of collectors who imagined it.

Lastly, coins are also very small versus other objects and are not as visually impressive. This may not matter to coin collectors but it certainly does to any other potential buyer. By this standard, a far more valid comparison is to compare a collection of multiple prominent coins to a single object in another field. And by this standard, I don't think coins are particularly underpriced.