Toning coins with cardboard

Discussion in 'Coin Chat' started by Omegaraptor, Aug 21, 2016.

  1. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    I'm well aware of all of that. I was trying to put things into simple terms that the average layman could relate to and understand.
     
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  3. V. Kurt Bellman

    V. Kurt Bellman Yes, I'm blunt! Get over your "feeeeelings".

    When did we let him in? ;) NK's right. If we go and let average laymen in here, next they'll be buying thiourea online and getting citric acid down at the canning aisle, and some baking soda in the grocery store and the next thing you know the market will be awash in AT coins and it'll all be my personal fault because I gabbed. I feel so cheap and ashamed. Oh wait! All that's already happened! Never mind.
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2016
  4. Kentucky

    Kentucky Supporter! Supporter

    BTW, as far as my understanding goes, the "sniffer" is simply an InfraRed device that measures IR absorbing substances on the surface. IR absorbing substances are overwhelmingly organic substances and metal/inorganic substances would not show up with such a technique. Correct me if I am wrong.
     
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  5. V. Kurt Bellman

    V. Kurt Bellman Yes, I'm blunt! Get over your "feeeeelings".

    Wasn't the issue du jour when the "sniffer" debuted the use of something called "putty" being applied to coins to mask flaws? I seem to remember Laura Sperber ranting uncontrollably on "another site" about it. I recall the term "dreck" being bandied about repeatedly. Of course, it's easier to just do what Laura wants, rather than try to talk to her about things, so sniffing became the thing. By the way, I am just having a little fun at Laura's expense here, delicate wallflower that she is. o_O

    I sniffed a few coins. Mostly, they just smelled like "old". I had to be careful with the gold Canadian 25 cent gold coins. A guy could easily get one imbedded in the sinuses. :D
     
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  6. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    This is what PCGS said when the sniffer was announced - the bold font is my doing.


    "......Implementation of the PCGS Coin Sniffer for inorganic materials is planned for early 2011," he told attendees at the PCGS Set RegistrySM awards luncheon at the American Numismatic Association World's Fair of Money in Boston on August 13, 2010.

    The PCGS Coin Sniffer uses dispersive X-ray spectrometry (EDX), Fournier Transform Infra-Red Spectral analysis (FT-IR), Raman Spectroscopy and other analytical techniques to detect the kinds of materials applied by so-called "coin doctors" ........"

    "Willis explained that some coin doctors use metals to build up certain areas on a coin's surface, for example, attempting to create a full head on a Standing Liberty quarter, full split bands on a Winged Liberty/Mercury dime or improving diagnostic high areas. Metallic solutions such as solder, indium, Clorox®, iodine and potassium or potash have been applied to alter a coin's surface.

    Beginning next year, the PCGS Coin Sniffer will use EDX technology to analyze elements of coins on the atomic level. The FT-IR technology that will be implemented this fall analyzes coins on the molecular level. In the EDX process, a high-energy beam of electrons is focused on a coin's surface. Resultant dispersed energy is measured and the atomic structure is determined.

    "It's similar to scanning with an electron microscope," said Willis. "Foreign metals as well as metal fatigue due to high heat from a blow torch or laser can be detected." ..........."

    You can read it all here - http://www.pcgs.com/News/Pcgs-Coin-Sniffertrade-Uses-Advanced-Technology-To-Detect-Doctored-Coins


    So yes, according to them at least, the sniffer can detect metals that have added to the coin.
     
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  7. BadThad

    BadThad Calibrated for Lincolns

    That's why the TPG's now decide if toning is market acceptable or not rather than trying to spot intentional/forced toning. They cannot differentiate between a natural and an intentionally altered coin.
     
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  8. V. Kurt Bellman

    V. Kurt Bellman Yes, I'm blunt! Get over your "feeeeelings".

    Indium? I never heard of indium. Must be interesting stuff. Is curry powder involved? I mean, wouldn't the plural of indium be india?
     
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  9. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    Yes, putty was one of the biggies. This is largely because putty, when freshly applied to gold coins, is at the best very difficult to see, even for some of the best. And it has fooled the graders at the TPGs many, many times.

    But putty is far from being the only thing that the sniffer can detect, in fact does detect. About the only thing it can't do is distinguish AT from NT. It can easily detect that the toning is there, it just can't tell AT from NT. But then that's because they are the same.
     
  10. V. Kurt Bellman

    V. Kurt Bellman Yes, I'm blunt! Get over your "feeeeelings".

    Seems strange that the reflectivity of putty could match so well. I guess picking at the surface of a gold coin with a knife is considered rude, huh? :eek:o_O
     
  11. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    When it's fresh, or even fairly new, it does. Now with time, over a few years, the putty dries out and it becomes a whole lot easier to see, at least for those who know what they are looking at. And that is exactly how and why the puttied coins get discovered resulting in the TPG having to honor their guarantees and then purchase the coin to get it off the market. The TPGs have spent millions buying back puttied gold coins that they could not detect when they graded them.
     
  12. V. Kurt Bellman

    V. Kurt Bellman Yes, I'm blunt! Get over your "feeeeelings".

    What happens then? Do they get de-puttied and then regraded correctly sans putty?
     
  13. calcol

    calcol Supporter! Supporter

    Yup, I agree. Same chemicals causing it, same chemical result on/in the coin. Usually though, AT is done more quickly than NT.

    Toning and wear are two things that can be done by intention in a way that are indistinguishable from the "natural" process.

    Cal
     
  14. Conder101

    Conder101 Numismatist

    Yes that's what they did. Of course now that they have changed their guarantee so that it doesn't cover coins that "go bad" after they have been slabbed they can now just say "Sorry guarantee doesn't cover that.". Would they actually do that for a puttied coin? I don't think so, but they could.
     
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