Who is good at identifying copies?

Check out this Oliver Cromwell crown - with the famous die crack:

Apologies for posting in the ancients group, but I trust your opinions enormously and I know a lot of you love English coins (which have portraits that are very much in the Roman style).

The coin is made either from original dies, or from moulds from an original coin. I am concerned about the edge. There should be lettering, but it's not clear, and I'm not sure if we have a fine thin weld on the edge that has been disguised with tooling. I couldn't find much info online about how Cromwell crowns are faked (which I am sure they are, since these coins are a big deal). Electrotype copy? What do you think?

 

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Hi Greg,
i was at a coin club meeting a while back and there's an older member that always has coins to sell, he gives me great deals, i usually buy most of his coins. he had this coin which i don't collect, when i got home i looked it up on ebay and was a key date in silver, which have the size and weight of silver, but something didn't look right and i posted it here on the coin forum, most thought it to be real.
One member posted it to be a foil cast lead center, which would show the die crack, i think you have one there to.

You can see the coin looks like it could be silver, till you look at the edge, the two sides fold together, as your coin looks like.

I think these were made some time ago, they show good details, but the edge is the key. size and weight will be off check that first.

 

Your coin appears to be a base metal copy; not a genuine Mint product.

He probably was describing an electrotype like in in Post#2. These have a very thin (foil-like) layer of copper over a base metal core. A better photo of the edge should show the dark line in the center of the edge that is blurred above.

 

Thanks Eng. Size and weight of the Cromwell crown are right. The die crack is a famous feature of a genuine Cromwell crown. It's just the edge which, you rightly point out, is the key.

 

@ Greg Heinrich Go to this thread* later today after I post the edge to see another electro. BTW, IMO, I doubt your Cromwell is an electro.

* "Just added this to my collection! Too good to be true?"

 

Personally I think the coin is legitimate since to me this does not look like an electrotype seal. Further since the weight is spot on this favors its regal status. I have a new book coming out in a few months via Amazon Books on counterfeits. Much information backed up with XRF data and in my book I address these Crowns or at least show a contemporary counterfeit of this period and discuss its diagnostics in my World Chapter which runs from 1500-1800 for several countries primarily England, France and Spain. An electrotype with a rim to rim die break and a proper regal weight. I don't think so ... the edge looks like a Castaing Edge slippage outcome (i.e., not really an error per se as slippage of edge devices occurs occasionally and has no real premium IMO from these poor pictures).
England experimented briefly with milled coinage, but it wasn't until Peter Blondeau brought his method of minting coins there in the mid-seventeenth century that such coinage began in earnest in that country. Blondeau also invented a different method of marking the edge, which was, according to him, faster and less costly than the method pioneered by Olivier. Though Blondeau's exact method was secretive, numismatists have asserted that it likely resembled the later device invented by Jean Castaing. Castaing's machine marked the edges by means of two steel rulers, which, when a coinage blank was forced between them, imprinted legends or designs on its edge. Castaing's device found favor in France, and it was eventually adopted in other nations, including Britain and the United States, but it was eventually phased out by mechanized minting techniques. Although I did not confirm if this particular issue was the result of this anti-counterfeiting technique in KM. At work ... its regal to me unless further data is revealed. THis strong die break in terms of its sharpness also rules out cast IMO.

John Lorenzo
United States

 

The edge is a good tip-off something MIGHT be amiss, but don't put too much heft in it because, like Colonial John said, genuine examples can exhibit such things and most of the fake American coins I have dealt with were cast so that the seam was along the top or bottom side of the rim making it VERY discreet. I would pay more attention to what looks like porosity below the die crack.

 

Very helpful and informative advice guys!

 

From doing some Googling/Spink's, these crowns typically seem to have drapery with this somewhat dappled effect.

 

Yeah, and I'll bet they are the color of lead with "spikes," "depressions," and "mold cracks" too. That piece "screams" PLEACE AUTHENTICATE ME in spite of the very knowledgeable expert's opinion.

 

Let us know what the final verdict is on this coin. And I agree that getting it slabbed will tell you for sure if it's real.

 

Well, i completely disagree with the practice of slabbing - and the companies that provide the (IMO) non-service of slabbing do not guarantee that a coin is authentic anyway.

John Lorenzo makes a strong case for the coin's authenticity. The Castaing machine slippage produces the result on the edge which you would not expect to find on a counterfeit. The weight is exactly what a crown-sized piece of silver weighs, so i think we've ruled out electrotype copies. A transfer die forgery is possible, but unlikely in my mind - again because of the edge error.

 

The seller listed the weight at 28 grams - is this a red flag?

 

No - a silver crown should weigh one ounce (approx 28g). I cannot find anything wrong with the coin tbh, and the edge lettering error makes its authenticity more likely in my mind.

 

NGC will guarantee the authenticity of most world coins:
https://www.ngccoin.com/coin-grading/coins-graded-policies/authenticity.aspx

I've only had a single coin they called counterfeit and never one they wouldn't authenticate or call "questionable authenticity". And in that case they'll refund the submission fees for that coin.

 

While Mr. Lorenzo is the counterfeit expert around here; I've never seen a crown sized coin (except for 8 Rls) that looked as obviously counterfeit as your coin. Since you don't wish to find out for sure, save your authentication money and offer it to a few foreign coin dealers. If they offer a price, it may be authentic. If they say they don't need one at the moment or question if it is genuine, it probably is not.

IMHO, the edge of a coin is one of the hardest parts to fake. Much of the skill that was used to make edges on the coins in JL's field of expertise has been lost until the more modern times we are in.

 

The coin isn't mine - I was targeting it in an eBay auction but was outbid.

I would certainly want to authenticate the coin if it was mine, but I would definitely not get it slabbed by NGC. I detest the practice - there have been many threads on why slabbing is bad, I won't go into it here. I would take the coin to experts whose names you probably know, and get their opinions.

I am by no means an expert on fake coins of this era. So, for my benefit, could you please explain why you believe this coin is an obvious fake?

 

I stand corrected. They don't guarantee ancient coins, which is my field and which is why I presumed the non-guarantee extended to everything. They do guarantee world coins.

Not that i'd pay for the non-service of slabbing which IMO has ruined the hobby.

 

Really? How many collectors only realized what they had when submitting their "most valuable pieces"? Counterfeits, cleaned coins, damaged/corroded/altered coins etc. you name it! I think the TPGs do a great service to the hobby. E.g. authenticating English Crowns from the 17th century ;-)

 

I have a problem with the aesthetic where people now collect slabs and not coins.
And don't get me started on the Sheldon scale where people actually care about the mark someone gives a coin out of 70. In the modern coin forum there are tedious "guess the grade" threads, where the mark out of 70 is more important than learning anything at all about the coin. It's become a dull exercise in investment (and OCD!), where value is created artificially by the words and numbers on a slab. This has been a topic many times.

An authentication service is fine - please don't entomb the coin in the process.