Someone has got to explain this one to me... PCGS

Discussion in 'Coin Chat' started by geekpryde, Jan 14, 2024.

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Who Is the Crazy Person here?

  1. geekpryde

    1 vote(s)
    7.1%

  2. PCGS

    9 vote(s)
    64.3%

  3. Coin Doctor

    1 vote(s)
    7.1%

  4. Submitter

    1 vote(s)
    7.1%

  5. Someone else

    2 vote(s)
    14.3%
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  1. geekpryde

    geekpryde Husband and Father Moderator


    Several members have mentioned the tapered planchet and the weight test. I don't understand this as a reason / proof its an error coin, let me explain.

    If I have a coin with a Tapered Planchet from the mint, the coin is underweight lets say a few grams.

    If I take a perfect coin, and drag it on the pavement outside a bank, causing metal loss, the coin is now underweight a few grams.

    How is being a few grams underweight proof it was not PMD?

    Please explain, as I honestly don't know much about error coins.
     
    geekpryde, Jan 20, 2024
    #41 + Quote Reply
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  3. Burton Strauss III

    Burton Strauss III Brother can you spare a trime? Supporter

    Which is why I included a microscopic examination.

    I'm guessing, but it has to come from a deeper understanding of the minting process.

    A tapered planchet is cut from a tapered strip of metal. The taper comes from the rollers having less metal to work on. But it's smooth metal to smooth metal.

    Abrasion on a parking lot is much rougher and more localized.
     
    Burton Strauss III, Jan 20, 2024
    #42 + Quote Reply
  4. Pickin and Grinin

    Pickin and Grinin Well-Known Member

    I think too many folks are wanting tis to be an error, so that PCGS doesn't look bad.
    If cracked out I guarantee that the coin is exact weight. As for the roller press. Please show any coin that has been struck on a tapered planchet even a straight clip that shows these heavy straited lines that are near a 32nd deep. A tapered planchet still strikes up with smooth to semi smooth surfaces. And a tapered planchet that has been run thru the upsetting mill still shows a proto rim on both sides.
     
    Pickin and Grinin, Jan 20, 2024
    #43 + Quote Reply
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  5. Dan Galbato

    Dan Galbato Well-Known Member

    This gives me hope! I’ve got a few vouchers to use and a Kennedy half to grind down first! Now where did I put that grinder?
     
    Dan Galbato, Jan 20, 2024
    #44 + Quote Reply
  6. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    Think of it this way, they (the TPGs) really don't care about proof. When push comes to shove the only thing they care about are definitions, and they are they the ones who decide what their definitions are, and when they apply and when they don't. If anything has ever been proved it is that the TPGs will slab just about anything !

    Take the slabbed coins you'll find in these threads -

    https://www.cointalk.com/threads/is...-waffle-cancelled-coins-on-the-market.393510/

    https://www.cointalk.com/threads/cancelled-coins-some-more-collectible-than-others.272534/

    Is there any doubt at all in anybody's mind that the coins in those threads have been damaged ? They are intentionally and quite deliberately damaged ! And yet all the TPGs slabbed them. Why ? Because of where the damage occurred. By their definition, it's not damage, because that damage was done at the mint.

    The very same thing happens when coins develop wear on them at the mint. And some coins absolutely do develop wear on them during all the handling, and moving around, and counting, and packaging, and bagging, before they ever leave the mint. To think it doesn't happen, can't happen, is ludicrous ! And yet to the TPGs, and by using their definitions, it's not wear if it occurred at the mint, or they can "claim" it occurred at the mint.

    Wear is wear, regardless of how, when and where it occurs, just like damage is damage regardless of how, when, and where it occurs.

    The problem is that there is absolutely no way to prove how, when, and where any of it occurred ! It doesn't matter if it is wear, or damaged, or even if the coin is waffled, it can just easily be done or occur outside the mint as it can occur inside the mint. But the TPGs claim it did occur inside the mint so the wear or damage doesn't count as wear or damage because of where it supposedly, stress supposedly, happened.

    The one and only thing that matters is that things like wear and damage are present on the coin. It simply doesn't matter, or make any difference because of how, where, when, or why it happened. It only matters that it is there !
     
    GDJMSP, Jan 21, 2024
    #45 + Quote Reply
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  7. gronnh20

    gronnh20 Well-Known Member

    Post Mint damage would have to occur after the coin is removed from the hopper. Otherwise, coins showing reeding marks from getting hit by another coin falling into the hopper would be PMD. If the coin did get damaged in the feeder fingers or whatever ejection mechanism got in the way, that was prior to it hitting the hopper. Mint error.

    If PMD is post ejection from the coining chamber then there is a whole lot of PMD in straight graded holders. Bag marks get a pass but damage during the minting process doesn't? The coin is as minted when it is ejected into the hopper. What about a die crack? Should that be damage? The die has failed by cracking and that mechanical malfunction shows up as a raised line on the coin. Who doesn't like a good crack on a coin?

    All coin errors are some type of failure during the minting process. Some are just cooler than others.

    My feeder finger comment was meant to further the conversation. I was not there when the grader or PCGS received the coin. Nor am I giving the grader an out.
     
    gronnh20, Jan 21, 2024
    #46 + Quote Reply
  8. messydesk

    messydesk Well-Known Member

    rimby2.jpg
    This is why I think it could be a legit tapered planchet. The rim is not fully struck up on the obverse. Lots of people in this thread itching to know more than PCGS about this coin based on only seeing a picture.
     
    messydesk, Jan 22, 2024
    #47 + Quote Reply
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  9. ifthevamzarockin

    ifthevamzarockin Well-Known Member

    If the planchet was damaged you would see the scratches below the letters, the scratches are on top of the letters.
    That would indicate it was scratched after it was struck.
    Also in the low part of the U on the inside you can see displaced metal or a slight burr.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2024
    ifthevamzarockin, Jan 23, 2024
    #48 + Quote Reply
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  10. messydesk

    messydesk Well-Known Member

    No, if the planchet is a mess, that mess will remain on the high points of the design, as that is the last part to be struck by the dies. In this case, it's the rim and lettering, as there was not enough planchet to fill the die, while the field was struck fully where it is clean.
     
    messydesk, Jan 23, 2024
    #49 + Quote Reply
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