New PCGS IHC Purchase Issue

I haven't posted in a long while as I've been downsizing my lifetime collection. Right now I'm pretty much down to improving my certified Indian Head Cent collection. This past Sunday I purchased a nice MS65RB CAC 1870 IHC FS-303 (Pick-Axe variety) from a David Lawrence Rare Coins auction. I intend to replace a lower grade one in my NGC IHC registry set. Unfortunately, NGC rejected the coin, indicating that the certification number wasn't found in the PCGS database. Sure enough, when I entered the certification number myself using the PCGS Certification app it indicates that it is an invalid number. I am certain that the coin is legit along with the green bean.

I've made several attempts to contact PCGS but as of yet haven't received a reply. I posted this here in hopes that others may have had a similar experience and could share your thoughts. I'm sure that PCGS is busy but wonder what I can expect from their customer support. Last summer I sent them an email about the procedure I should follow getting an 1860 IHC in a second generation green holder properly attributed; the coin is a pointed bust variety but the holder indicates rounded bust. I got no response to that email.

Here's the DLRC images I copied for the 1870 coin I just purchased.

 

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This is what I got when I looked it up on the CAC database:



Have you talked to DLRC yet?

 

I sent them an email and as of yet haven't gotten a response.

 

Now I'm really wondering why CAC removed it from their database.

 

Scanning the bar code also shows an invalid cert number.

 

So it looks like the green bean on the coin was legit and the cert # was active at one time.

 

Call JA @ CAC, or John Butler @ CACG, I suspect the piece was submitted as a Legacy coin for encapsulation in a CACG slab.

Do you have the coin in hand, or is it on the way to you by Mail?

If not, I would wait to see if you receive the piece...which could possibly be in a "new" CCG slab.

It is possible the piece was listed with the previous encapsulation in the imaged Holder, because the actual "new" CACG Holder image was not available at the time of the auction, and DLRC went with what they have and it was just a human mistake. After all, it is a Legacy coin, so it would cross @ same grade @ CACG.

BUT (there is always a "BUT") it is possible the pictured piece is in a phony Holder. I can only view the image posted, so my comments concerning what I am viewing would be useless, regardless of my thoughts.

Truth in editing: removed an "s", changed "A" to "@"

I wish you well.

 

Seems to be legit as the CAC lookup checked out. Most likely PCGS has an issue with their DB or it was really crossed over to CACG.

 

Thanks for the quick reply. I received the coin in the mail today and it's in the PCGS holder shown in the images. Both the coin and holder look legit. I plan on calling DLRC if I don't hear from them in the next day or two and hopefully they have better luck in contacting PCGS (and possibly CAC) so we can get to the bottom of this issue. All indications are that this coin at one time existed in both PCGS and CAC databases. When I get this issue resolved I'll post an update. I hope that I didn't toss $2200 out the window.

 

PCGS AND CAC/CACG have a database agreement.

I would guess it is an editing issue, and the reason I think that, is because in the CAC database, it is listed as a "Legacy" coin...meaning it is eligible to cross at same grade @ CACG. Note that CACG is in building a Registry site, and I suspect this is a comedy of errors. A LOT of hands are involved in building the databases at this time at CACG.

IF...and it is a big IF, what you are probably thinking is that someone has counterfeited the Holder and placed another coin in the slab, you are not out the $. So, relax. I have seen this kind of FUBAR before. It will work out. I assure you, DLRC and CAC and CACG and PCGS do not want ANY bad press about this kind of an issue. You will be fine.

 

Your comments made my mind wander a bit about possibilities why it was removed from both databases. Would it be a stretch to consider that the coin was submitted to CACG but was rejected? I'm assuming that they wouldn't crack it out of the PCGS slab. In that scenario CACG mistakenly reported that the coin was reholdered, thus PCGS would remove the cert # from their active database. I'm hoping that it is a clerical error.

I'm not stressing out about this. I'm sure that there's a reasonable explanation. Humans do make mistakes. After I was born my dad said that I was his mistake!

 

Yes, that is possible. BUT...it is still a Legacy coin. It is more likely it was submitted as a cross at higher grade or return, and it didn't make it, and that triggered a booboo in the database. In that scenario, it wouldn't be a PCGS database booboo, because theirs is linked to CAC database.

As to your dad, you were lucky. That is a mild comment. Try a mother that states the best part of you dribbled onto the sheet.....

 

You are going to drive yourself crazy with this over the weekend. This is a rare case where I agree with Charley. It's just a database error.

Now, for me, it would be waste of time to call PCGS. They won't listen to me. But they will listen to John Brush & associates at DLRC. And, after all, your business in this affair is with DLRC. They sold you a coin that you cannot verify is genuine. When they call PCGS, they will get attention.

So send an email tomorrow to DLRC with all the information including page shots of the PCGS and CAC cert page results and ask them to fix it. Be nice.

I had something similar happen a year or so ago. I was contemplating bidding on a coin at Great Collections but the TPG cert search returned a completely different coin; think the target coin is a early 19th century in high grade and the returned coin is a 20th century common coin-totally different. I sent Ian an email saying I couldn't bid on a coin unless I could verify beforehand that it was genuine. The database error was fixed within 24 hours. Do you think the TPG would have responded to me in that manner? BTW, I didn't win that coin.

Good luck. I don't doubt for a minute that the coin and slab are genuine and it's a quite nice 1870. Once you get the details squared away, you two will make a happy couple.

 

Now that is funny! I don't care who you are!

 

I'm not stressing about it. I've had good experiences with DLRC so all I need is some patience for things to get fixed. Being retired, all I have going for me these days are searching for coins, bowling, playing cards, and women. Ok, I lied about the last one.

 

As others suggested, DLRC is your best bet to get it sorted out (hopefully they will be available Monday to help out). My best guess is that it's a database error (PCGS mistakenly voided the wrong cert when someone else crossed a coin or returned a label with a similar number; then CAC's tool picked up that PCGS removed the cert and they also removed it).

 

That’s weird, I have never seen that before .

 

I'd contact David Lawrence he's as reputable as they come. I'd bet he'd fix it?

 

Hey this is John Call at DLRC. We’ve been emailing PCGS for two weeks. I last heard from Curt Mease on Thursday evening that he sent it to the “higher ups” and is awaiting a response. Don’t worry. We are still trying. I’ll try again Monday evening if we have not heard anything.

 

Unfortunately the original David Lawrence passed away of Lou Gehrig’s Disease nearly 27 years ago now. John Brush is president now and we have plenty of employees.