Check this CAC grading comparison

And for resale on a lot of coins a 63 cac and a low end 64 no bean are about comparable. The thing I hope cac really cracks down on is surface issues. The amount of straight graded coins I see in pcgs/ngc holders with serious surface issues is huge. I’ve been at shows where literally 60–70% of seated dollars for sale have had surfaces. And I don’t mean a market acceptable dip on a ms coin. I mean blast white low au coins. Toned over hairlines from old cleanings and wipes. The unnatural gloss on a circulated cleaned coins. And it’s not just those. I just notice a lot of them with horrible surfaces that should be detailed. I see this in all denominations yeah. Some are a fine line. But there’s a lot of complete dreck in straight holders that especially catch the unsuspecting when buying at a sight unseen coin auction etc.

 

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You mean putty or surface alterations ? I read more about that a decade ago....not as much now.

Insider, how difficult is it to detect doctoring of the SURFACE with stuff like putty ?

So you're talking about TPG coins with this problem, not raws ?

I would think this would be easy to catch, from what you and others are talking about. If it isn't, maybe a reason to use AI and other new technologies to catch this since human eyes are failing us ?

 

"C" Coins: Apparently I missed that CAC is saying that they are NOT putting "C" coins in CACG holders that match the grade they otherwise merit.

If true, it's a reversal of what JA said when CAC started up 15 years ago.

 

I’m talking about absolute crap In straight grade holders. Go to any coin show. If you really know coins surfaces and originality. Go look in cases of early type. Pick out some. Not cac approved. And look through it. Better yet if you know some of the major wholesalers. Look through their slab boxes. Especially early type. The crap is everywhere. When I was active as a dealer I rejected as much due to surfaces problems or just being ugly than I did to price. A lot of straight graded coins I wouldn’t own at any price.

 

It’s not that they’re failing. It’s the massive pressure. Turnaround times and grader burnout. Especially pcgs. Why JA has it right. Less eyes. More experienced graders. More experience etc. think about how much crap modern mint products pcgs and ngc graders have to process every year. Then mix in with the ms 69/70 silver eagles some early seated coins in xf-au. And then some early copper. And then some low ms but basically bullion gold. They should dedicate series to specialists

 

What coin series are you referencing, MB ?

Was this most likely during the period of loosey-goosey grading in the late-1990's/early-2000's ?

 

I've been saying/thinking that for years and yet have been ASSURED multiple times that graders with years of experience need only 15-20 seconds per coin.

I never believed it.

I'm a financial professional and I've cut the time needed to look at an income statement or balance sheet, but not by 90%. Maybe 50-75% the last 30 years.

Agreed....at least with modern submissions you don't have to worry about altered surfaces or putty or the stuff you do looking for wear/friction/rub/putty on Saints or Morgans or other classic series.

 

The way they market grade that’s all the time they need. You’re looking at income statements and balance sheets, thinking. They’re looking at coins and the market, appraising. They’re like realtors. Call it “grading” for dopes like us.

 

I will agree with you MaineBill about the overdipped, flat out stripped and or deeply hairlined coins not belonging in straight graded holders. however I give a pass to slightly glossy circulated coins. It is just proof that a collector from another day and age loved it. James

 

No, it is not.

 

Any and all early type. Especially bust and seated stuff. I can’t count the number of bad seated dollars bad bust dollars bad bust halves etc and on and on. Genuine coins. But serious surface problems. Coins I would totally expect if I sent in for authentication to come back in a details slab. And I’m saying both ngc and pcgs. And anacs and icg as well. But was mainly referring to the big 2

 

And these are exactly the coins I’m referring to. And they’re WAY too common. Why If I’m buying sight unseen at an auction. Ha Stacks bowers GC etc. I almost need a bean. Or it has to scream original from the pics. Cause there’s so much rubbish out there

 

Well, the 2008 interview with Maurice Rosen he said that "C" coins WERE properly graded just would not qualify for a CAC sticker like "A" and "B" coins.

 

Absolutely, but this is something I think that with high-res optical scanners, various lighting types, and AI...you can scan a coin HUNDREDS of ways a second and determine the quality.

Think about what technology could do in under 5 seconds:

• Count up all the bagmarks and/or scratches, with an estimate of average length and/or depth.
• Look for dings on the rims, devices, fields.
• Check for putty.
• Check for wear/friction on high points.
• See how good the strike is by focusing on certain "tells" like the Capitol Building on Saints or the toes or fingers or hair strands.

You could potentially scan DOZENS of variables under different types of light (UV, incandescent, LED, etc.)....angle the coin different ways....check weight and composition of the metal....etc.

I know it's not around the corner, but potentially it is much better than a pair of eyes that have been looking at 200 coins for 6 hours straight and the owner of the eyeballs is now a bit tired and wondering if he can leave early to beat the traffic and what's for dinner.

 

I’d rather trust a skilled grader that’s not absolutely burned out than a machine. There’s plenty of skilled and knowledgeable numismatists out there such as JA and others. Plenty here I’d trust over a machine such as Insider. I’m no tech fan at all. If it’s my money on the line. I want humans to grade my coin even with the margin of human error. Can a machine understand strike weakness. Die wear. And some of the eccentricities of early coins. Would they call clashed dies damage? Would they catch skilled professional doctoring. On mass produced modern crap who cares is there really a difference between a ms 69 or 70 silver eagle. I don’t think so. They’re just crap bullion worth their weight in silver if you ask me. But an early large cent that’s about 2 strike’s away from the die falling apart. That’s where i want a skilled human grader. As the machine probably wouldn’t understand the cracks or be able to attribute the Sheldon variety

 

All good points Maine. The last thing I want to see is someone out of a job. One thing a computer will never learn is all the small details that a person learns over the time they collect.
IMO teach an AI to grade bullion and leave it there. The system would be better able to detect the smallest of nick, you would be able to program the system to choose one type of luster over the next. One should then be able to program strike VS deterioration. etc. The collector then chooses which he wants on his/her collection. That is the only way I see AI as a way for coins.
There are too many variables in business strike coins.

 

@GoldFinger1969

Surface alterations are easy to detect with flourescent light and a microscope. With experience your naked eye will catch most of it.

 

I think AI can do that -- down the road, MB. For sure, probably not right now.

If forced to wager on a week's worth of coin grading -- say, 1000 coins -- I would bet that an AI system could do it better (certainly it wouldn't take 5 days) and faster.

I share your sentiments regarding human grading but I don't know if the grader is going to give my coin 15 seconds or 2 minutes. And that makes a big difference if you have to look out for lots of different things. And it is clear to me that with the debate on the whole Market vs. Technical grading thing, CACG downgrading lots of coins, and standards changing over time....that CONSISTENCY (which is probably the most important thing) is not there.

 

But are a fluorescent light and a scope going to be used on the assembly line that is today's TPGs ? I wonder....

I'd have no problem wagering my coin's grade if you were grading it, Insider. But what about some kid who dabbled in coins....took some courses....and got a job at a TPG and has been on the job for a few years ? No way all the TPG graders have the knowledge that someone like you does or even some of the posters here at CT.