Are you kidding me!?

$860 for a Tremissis of Tiberius II???!? Is there something I'm missing here? These normally go for $250-300ish. Hell for that price I could get a Tiberius II Solidus and a few nice Siliquae!

http://m.ebay.com/itm/161950305214

I wonder what was going through the sellers mind when he listed that coin?

 

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Want to know what is going through his mind? I bet I have a guess. "Free country. I can list it for what I want. If it does not sell for this price, I can always lower it later." I have no problem with that at all.

 

Seller is the vice president of the American Numismatics Association.

His website has a section giving investment advise...yeah, one of those "invest in numismatics commodities to get rich" types that permiates the US coin market these days. Naturally, he sells mostly slabbed US coins encased in precious NGC and PCGS resin.

I doubt the dude knows squat about ancient coins, other than trying to pass them to uneducated suckers (consumers) as another investment strategy, while he laughs his way to the bank. So much for being a spokesman for the ANA. Says everything that's wrong with modern coin collecting.

If you think the ANA vice president is not the norm, check out most US coin forums online. It's a lot about investing, discussing which coins to buy due to their upside for future appreciation in price, resubmitting coins to try to game the system and make a few extra bucks, etc. Sounds more like a meeting of commodities brokers than coin collectors. Don't get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with making some money in a hobby you love, but when that becomes the only thing that matters and the coins become just another commodity investment, it does more harm to the hobby than good.

 

@jwitten No one is stopping him from making a fool of himself. Though I have never seen a common Tremissis listed for that much, I think Sallent is on to something.

@Sallent I got you, thanks. Investments?? Where is the fun in that? I collect for the history and lore behind these coins not to strike it rich 60 years down the road.

 

When it comes to any hobby, there are always sellers that ask a ridiculous price for their items. Some just don't care if they sell it or not, and there are some that is definitely looking to take advantage. In this case, to me its the latter. The coin is entombed so he thinks a new collector will fork over extra money for it. With the pictures provided that coin doesn't even look that good.

@Sallent .Its got nothing to do with modern vs. ancients. There are modern collectors that collect for pleasure instead of hoping to profit from coins. I can't speak for others but personally I buy modern coins for pleasure. Now I do buy slabbed modern coins but its not so much for profit or so.

 

It's not terribly uncommon to see dealers doing this kind of thing. Either they don't know the market value of what they're selling(which could well be true, this guy is a modern dealer after all) or they just hope to take advantage of someone who has no idea about the monetary value of these things. Considering he only sells slabbed coins, it should tell you that the dealer doesn't have the requisite skills to determine authenticity and grades of what he sells either and for both of these reasons, is simply not worth the increased cost that comes with buying from a dealer and the best those of us who collect ancients can do is to simply avoid dealers like this.

I buy from the dealers and auction houses I buy from because they don't play pricing games like this and they've shown me that they know enough about the coins they're selling to be worth the price of buying from them and I recommend everyone at least consider what makes a dealer worth doing business with.

 

He's a used car salesman. Some people respect it, most don't. He probably owns an orange and blue, plaid sports jacket.

 

At least Illya Zlobin has a best offer button on his auctions.

 

What is a bigger shocker is the grade NGC put on this coin. MS? One, we do not have a MS grade in ancients. Secondly, that coin at BEST is VF to an ancient collector.

 

Agreed.
I wouldn't pay cent over $275 for that coin.

 

I had not noticed the grade. An absolute joke! NGC needs to get their grading of ancient together. Right now they have no clue what they are doing. I've seen some VF and XF grades on ancients that were an aF at best.

 

The term "grade" refers to wear alone. You don't have to like that fact--it is just what "grade" means. The coin shows no wear. It is the strike "4/5" which is too high for the obverse, which is weakly struck. Giving one number to the strike when the coin has two sides is a flaw in the NGC system. What if a coin were perfectly struck on one side and 30% off-center from a worn die on the other?

The term "condition" refers to far more about a coin than "grade." If you want to include strike, patina, centering, etc., use the term "condition."

 

I agree it got too high for strike. If it has no wear, or circulation, it is MS. In other words, that is how it looked when minted. A lot of those (from the few I have seen) are poorly struck.

 

But what of 500 years of history of how ancient collectors have graded their coins? I have seen 100+ year old ancient coin catalogs and I agree with the grade assigned to the coins then, and yes it was always the term "grade". I do not ever remember see "conditions" assigned to coins, only grades.

I do not want to repeat the MAJOR blunder US numismatics made when delineating between MS and worn coins. To them, a coin is a higher "grade" with massive problems like poor strike, scratches, etc. That is where they jumped the shark 150 years ago. The entire point of a grade should be the better looking the coin looks like perfect, the higher the grade. Therefor, many ancient coins left the mint the day they were struck as VF, some F.

 

Curious: what is MS for an Ancient when it hand-struck, inconsistent dies, and every step is performed by hand?

 

+100

There is no such thing as MS when you are talking about hand-struck coins minted from different hand-made dies. You can't judge ancients by modern coins standards which are designed for coins that can be reproduced identically and with the same consistency time after time using a mechanized process.

 

Does NGC stand for "Not Graded Correctly"?

 

@Topcat7 Now you are on to something!
Back to the bottle for me! This feels entirely too good!

 

This is what infuriates me about the US coins market. The prices are skyrocketing because of the investment mentality, while us collectors are behind in the dust, picking up what leftover scraps we can, which are quickly rising in price too. (Notice I did not use "value." That would imply that these coins are actually worth what they are selling for). I can attribute this mentality to one thing: the TPGs. They have allowed non-numismatists who don't care and know nothing about coins to enter the market with complete confidence. And then, of course, the mentality of fighting for the best-of-the-best drives prices up, and causes more publicity, and then more money-eyed investors. And the cycle continues...

A US type set is darn-near impossible to complete with decent examples of the pre-1900 types and without having some culls to fill in the rarer holes. And that is the only thing I'm interested in as far as US is concerned, and it is beginning to look more like a futile effort.

This is why I have migrated over here. Things make more sense. The better stuff is usually cheaper. And the TPGs are reviled.

 

As far as the global coin market goes, it is well known that US coins are severely overpriced compared to anything else out there. You can pick up some rather rare 19th and 18th century South American Gold and Silver for far less than you can pick up some rather common late 19th and early 20th century US silver. Even some of the rarer European coins can be had for a lot less than more common US coinage.

Let's not even mention ancients. When I can get 3rd century Roman silver for less than a common Morgan Dollar that can be found literally behind any blade of grass, that tells you all you need to know.

TPGs and the investor websites are mostly to blame for that.