Full Bell Lines on Franklin Halves.

As usual...you have made many great points to explain designations. As usual, I'll insert some remarks:

"GDJMSP wrote: "I think the first part of your comment is how the special designations came to be in the first place, back before the NGC and PCGS even existed. But once they did exist - after that, it was just a gimmick. And a meaningless gimmick at that. Designations are not a gimmick! They are a result of more knowledge and attempt to further divide the quality of the coins we collect. When you and I were collecting I did not hear of/know about/think about/or know anyone who even cared if a BU dime had bands or not. Same for all the other designations. BU DMPL dollars could be purchased for the same price as unc'c. The only qualifier regularly used was for copper color - BECAUSE those collectors were more advanced than the rest of us and Sheldon included color in grading.

All collectibles evolve searching for perfection, coins are no exception. You want finicky, stamp collectors worry about the back side of a stamp that cannot even be seen when mounted. Humm, similar to a rim file, edge damage, and edge corrosion that cannot be seen in a typical slab.

Think about it. What is it, exactly, that the special designations are supposed to mean? They are supposed to define the quality of strike of the coin in order to set apart exemplary coins - special coins - that are at the least well if not very well struck. Yes, I guess most are related to strike. That's why the Technical Grading System did not regard strike as anything detractive that happened to the coin after it was struck. Fully struck and flatly struck mark free original Mint State coins are both PERFECT as made.

Quality of strike is one of the criteria that is supposed to be used, but is usually ignored by the TPGs, in grading. And there are 4 basic categories covering quality of strike - weak strike, average strike, good strike (sometimes referred to as well struck) and full strike. And if you read actual grading standards quality of strike is a limiting factor, but again it is usually ignored by the TPGs. For example, according to the standards a coin cannot be graded MS65 unless that coin is, at the least, well struck, meaning it can grade no higher than 64. Or, a coin cannot be graded MS67, (and in some cases 66), unless it is fully struck. The old criteria limiting a coin not fully struck to MS-64 has been slowly being changed by the TPGS's. In fact, when you examine grading as it is practiced today by the TPGS; they are slowly reverting to a more technical approach. Ignoring "strike" is one indication of this. So was "detail" grading to more correctly describe a coin other than a"net" approach!

Then we have the special designations, a way to take an average coin and make it special, something more than it actually is. The coin may only grade 63, or 64, but if you slap a special designation on the slab - well, it becomes special. Not only increasing the desirability of the coin in the eyes of the public, but increasing its value as well. AS IT SHOULD!

But what do you actually have when you have a coin with one of the special designations? Ah, a better than average coin? We've got FS or Full Steps for Jeffs, FB or Full Bands for Mercs, FH or Full Head for SLQ's, and FBL or Full Bell Lines for Frankies - all of them among the most popular coins for collectors.

But here's the thing, a Jeff is labeled FS - but you can't even see the windows of Monticello. Or maybe only 5 steps are visible instead of the 6 that are supposed to be there. So how in the world can anyone label that coin as being well, or very well struck ? I don't have a problem with this so we'll need to wait for other comments. Perhaps the window design became worn off the die.

A Merc is labeled FB (used to be FSB but was shortened) but other details of the fasces and or the details of the obv are weak, so how can you label that coin as well or very well struck ? Ditto above.

An SLQ is labeled as FH but yet there are rivets on the shield that are not even visible and other details that are weak, so how can you label that coin as well or very well struck ? Ditto above.

A Frankie is labeled as FBL but you can't read Pass and Stow on the bell, the wisp of hair in front of the ear on the obv is non existent and other details are weak, so how can label that coin as well or very well struck ?
I see you are one of the folks who care about the wisp of hair on the obverse.

The answer to all of these questions is simple - you cannot ! Oh but you can and they do. But yet they do. And to add insult to injury PCGS has weaker criteria for all of them than NGC does. That is a crime. Shame on PCGS!

And the worst part of it is - the public buys into it. They fall all over themselves to buy these coins, and pay more for them, just because they have these meaningless, and I mean truly meaningless, "special designations" on the slabs. When there is nothing special about them.

Well. I guess like most things its personal. Some folks don't care what they drive or what it looks like. Others want a shiny 911 Turbo S. Bottom line...there is a price difference.

 

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Jeez, I collect coins because I like to. I can't even attempt to over analysis why, I just enjoy the hobby. By the way, buy the coin, not the slab.

For years toning was considered corrosion and was subtracted from a coins grade, now toning is all the rage (I'm guilty, I like a nice rainbow, subtle tone on silver coins) and it makes a coin more valuable. Next year? Who knows what will add to a coin's value, maybe rarity? Let's see, my mentor told me- rarity, strike, demand (this is a big one), and eye appeal. He also said, "collect what you like, not what's currently popular".

 

Yep, been going on for years, particularly for some coin series! Every serious, informed, collector/dealer/TPGS knows that. However, it is not a gimmick. It is a business decision that has become the excepted norm and status quo.
That does not make it moral or right.

Some, such as yourself, will never except this change to grading. Others will recognize what is going on and "play" the system along with every serious, informed, collector/dealer who choose to play.

No one is forced to purchase an AU coin as Mint State. The only people hurt by this practice are the lazy, blind, or otherwise uninformed dupes who buy the plastic and not the coin. It is such a shame.

 

Maybe 80% The 20% who know better are on CT.

 

The key part with 90% silver and the Franklins in particular
is if you drop them on a solid surface,
how do they "ring" with Full Bell Lines vs non-FBL ?

carry on ...

 

They grade them high for a good reason...there are simply very few nice coins available. Ones that do grade well, and are quality coins, command double or triple the normal price. I,ve looked at hundreds of so called fbls lately and found only a few I would consider owning. Most are weak strikes which in my opinion(and we all know about opinions) do not qualify to be fbl. Luster, attractive toning and ugly toning are a whole other aspect. To be quite honest, about 1% of the Franklins for sale are gems and the rest(in my opinion) are not for me. I feel the same for any series of coins..."buy the book, not the cover"

 

PCGS won't even put a special designation on their slabs unless you pay extra. Now that's nerve.

 

First Strike. As if all others not bought in the first week of production are inferior. If you have the money, they will slab a turd and put from the horde of first extruded on the label and it would bring top money over all others floating in the cesspool.

 

Can't believe Doug didn't give you a "like" for this

 

What?

 

If you have a Morgan Dollar certified by PCGS and it is a VAM they don't put that on the label unless you pay extra. If you have a Kennedy Half that has accented hair PCGS will not put that on the label unless you pay extra. If you have an error coin PCGS won't list the error unless you pay extra. Do I have to go on? For what it cost to get a coin certified, they could add that extra line for free.

 

Some VAMs they do automatically. NGC and ANACS don't do varieties for free either, those take time and sometimes research. It's not the printing on the label they charge for. I don't like their error service at all but considering they operate in the same way I am not sure what point was being made.

 

If I send In a Kennedy Half and say I want it certified and graded as a accented hair, they charge extra. There's no research, they know what an accented hair looks like. My point is, they are doing everything to kick up the charge to certify coins.

Do you really believe NGCs latest- First Day of Issue? Unless it's bought from a Mint booth at a convention and the service is there and certifies on the spot, I don't believe that it really exists, but there are collectors that are paying a lot more just to get what is basically a worthless designation,

All I want from TPG is to certify a coin that I'm not really sure is real.

 

I've never sent an accented hair so I will take your word that that one isn't automatic. Of course their business model is to make money, they are a business after all. Appraisers in other industries don't work for free either.

Yes I do believe NGC is honest with their first day of issue. You can debate whether or not that adds any extra value, but I don't believe NGC is just allowing people to throw money at them to get that slapped onto the label

From NGCs website
"To qualify for First Day of Issue, coins must be received by NGC or an NGC-approved depository by the release date or on the business day immediately following the release date. For coins that are shipped to NGC by a submitter, the coins must arrive at NGC in the sealed mint shipping box bearing a postmark date that is identical to the release date and arrive at NGC by overnight mail on the business day following the submitter’s receipt of the package from the mint.

Coins still sealed in US Mint-issue First Day Covers are eligible for the First Day of Issue designation, but private issue covers are not accepted for this designation."

 

@TheMont Perhaps you should check the policies of second tier services. AFAIK, ANACS and ICG do plenty of major attributions w/o charge even when the collector did not know what he has.

IMO, charging extra for attributing an Accented Hair is CRIMINAL! The only possible explanation for this is the high paid graders lack common knowledge about many major varieties. I know this to be true in the 1980's and early 90's when slabs were a Cherrypickers treasure house. I though things were different by now.

It seem unbelievable to me that a TPGS would slab a naked eye variety (1946 DDR 50c, Accented Hair 50c), virtually known to every collector as a "normal" coin when that would indicate to the marketplace that they made a mistake!

 

Or that they know it increases the value and people will pay for it

 

So you honestly believe that a "First Day of Issue" is not a marketing ploy (it does cost extra to get that label). I believe in Capitalism and a company exists to make a profit. What I don't believe in is taking advantage of people's lack of knowledge. I have a friend who owns a coin shop and I can't begin to tell you the abuse he takes when people bring in coins that they bought on TV and he has to break the news to them that they overpaid or that limited 5,000 mintage coin issued by Niue and minted by the Perth Mint isn't really worth what they paid for it.

I've always lived my live with the idea of earning an honest dollar with an honest effort. Judging by the number of companies that are coming out of the woodwork and offering to certify and grade coins, it must be a profitable business. Look at the first page of the Greysheet and see the ratings of the different mainstream TPGs. Even PCGS, the top rated is below 90%.

 

I collect Kennedy Halves. I just bought two PCGS slabbed Kennedys with very well know varieties- The 1964 Proof DDO and the 1964 Proof TDO. Neither one was noted on the slab. I have a P-Touch label maker, I'll add the varieties to the slabs myself.

I cherry picked these two coins at a coin shop and the dealer had no idea that the coins were varieties. I told him, he thanked me and still charged me the price he had on them. This is a dealer with years of experience and didn't note or care about a variety that carries a premium, I think the TPG have a responsibility to note when variety, that is very obvious, exists on a coin that they grade.