A Game (then a Resource): Old Collector Tags, Tickets, Envelopes. How many do you recognize?

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by Curtis, Aug 14, 2023.

  1. Curtis

    Curtis Well-Known Member


    I thought a numismatic game of "guess the collector tag" might be fun.


    First, some preliminaries and background (or jump ahead to the "game"!).

    NOTE
    : I've also just posted this on Reddit, where it may or may not get any attention:
    "Collector Tags Challenge": How many tags, tickets, envelopes can you ID?...
    Depending on what you collect, you may be very familiar w/ certain collector labels. Beyond descriptive details & references, they can offer valuable records of prior collections and publication history, even hoards and findspots. Sometimes tags are the only evidence of provenance.

    They provide a tangible link to the modern history (recent decades, even centuries) of ancient coin collecting, commerce, and scholarship. Researching them can be a challenge, but finding a match is a great thrill.

    A few online sources with names & photographs of collector tags:
    COLLECTOR TAG CHALLENGE!
    Do you recognize or have any of these? I thought it might be fun to try to guess or see who else has them.

    I'll edit in proper answers later, maybe after a day or so, to make the photos useful in the future to those doing provenance research. (For answers right now, there are links after each one.)



    1. Round white circular hand-written tag. Occasionally accompanied by life-size cutout photos. Sometimes w/ additional tags, incl. square ones.

    Probably the most commonly encountered private collector tags on Greek coins!
    (About half of my c. 100 from this collection have tags; most of the missing 50 were lost by intermediate collectors.)
    Answer (my website)
    Thessaly Larissa Drachm Ex BCD Grover Thessalos Horse Bull.jpg

    2. White and colored (yellow, blue, etc.) 2x2 paper envelopes, hand-written ink w/ extensive description & references. Thousands and thousands are out there (or were originally, many since destroyed). Important collection envelopes for Roman Provincial bronze coins. Many coins published. Of my 10 from this collection, 9 still have envelopes.
    Answer here (FORVM)
    Lindgren Antiochia Grimenthyrai.jpg

    3. Manilla 2x2 coin envelopes PLUS circular white tags, hand-written. (Sometimes one or the other.) Some mid-20th cent. previous collectors' tags/envelopes preserved and used instead, with new notes added.

    Vast important collection (a collector-dealer's) of Greek, Roman, and other. Recently dispersed.

    Many of the coins were published & have important provenances. Such information is inconspicuously written on tags, usually overlooked by the auction catalogers! (In fact, they gave me the wrong circular SNG Lockett ticket [1483 not 1501, Alex III Drachms], apparently not having checked & unaware the coins were published.)

    Most Greek have been encapsulated by NGC, but were still sold with the envelopes/tags (sadly, many were immediately discarded by buyers who felt the NGC slab was "enough").
    Answers here AND here, both on my website
    Elagabalus Otacilia Tegea Salton Tags.png


    4. White collector envelopes, hand written in pencil/black ink, often with collection numbers & dated ink stamp. Important New York collector, involved in numismatic organizations, frequent presenter at shows. As noted on the envelopes: many of the coins have been published (by the collector or other authors), as well prior provenance, and sometimes info about their past exhibitions.
    Answers: here and here
    Galst Tags.png

    5. Two different collectors, especially of London Constantine. Both collectors' detailed tags shown in both photos, one much larger than the other. They also appear alone. Many of the coins are published in the important new (2015) reference, London Mint of Constantius and Constantine (NBS book announcement).
    Answer here on my website, and in my blog post
    DiMarzio Toone Tags Constantine Crispus.jpg


    6. Off-white large round collector tags, hand written, usually blue ink. Sparse information, usually including prior provenance, often to important collections (especially to the Lockett collection). From the collection of an important Museum numismatist & classicist, long-term curator & well-known author. Usually kept prior collection tags when available.
    Answer here on my website
    Nero Phrygia Eumeneia Vermeule.jpg

    7. Off-white medium collector tag from an important multi-generational family, sparse hand-written ink notes, usually provenance. I believe these hand-written tags are from the grandfather, who privately exchanged coins with all the important early 20th century collectors and participated in major auctions, thus serving as an important record/information source on numismatic history.

    For example, from this tag, we learn that Ars Classica XV's anonymous “amateur étranger récemment décédé” may have been the famous collector-scholar, Edward Perry (E.P.) Warren (1860-1928). Multiple of his other consignments are well known, using similar pseudonyms, but I've never seen this one identified elsewhere.
    Answer here on my website
    [​IMG]

    8. Medium, off-white or yellow circular hand-written tickets. Coins from this collection have been sold in various waves over at least 10 (maybe 20?) years. Often coinciding with new editions of his most popular book, in which he replaces many the "plate coins," often from his collection.
    Answer here on my website
    Hendin Tags.jpg

    9. Small rectangular peach or pink colored tag with a typed number. The typed number is a museum "accession number." All of these were part of TWO museums (one of them TWICE!), having been donated from the collection of a major NYC philanthropist & benefactor (and, for one, founder) of the institutions.
    Answer here on my FORVM Gallery
    [​IMG]

    10. It is nice when NGC gives provenance info! In this case, the name given (Morris) the real name of the collection's direct consignor, but is actually more of a pseudonym, since Morris wasn't the actual collector.

    There are also distinctive manilla coin envelopes with typed notes that were originally associated with these coins. But sadly the envelopes were apparently discarded for all the encapsulated coins. (If no one else does it first, I'll link envelope images in a few hours or a day, once the "game" is completed.)
    Answer here on my website
    NGC Morris Peck.jpg


    TAKE A GUESS AT THE ANSWERS &

    ALSO, IF YOU WANT TO, PLEASE CONSIDER
    POSTING MORE COLLECTOR TAGS!
    from these collectors or any others...
    known, unknown, mystery, or otherwise...
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2023
    DonnaML, BenSi, Johndakerftw and 5 others like this.
  2. Avatar

    Guest User Guest



    to hide this ad.
  3. Curtisimo

    Curtisimo the Great(ish)

    1 is BCD. Some of the others look familiar as well. I’ll check my notes later this evening and see if I can get others.

    Krannon_AE_BCD.jpeg
    IMG_3929.png
     
  4. Curtisimo

    Curtisimo the Great(ish)

    9 is the Archer Huntington Collection which has an interesting and messy story involving the societies it was bequeathed and loaned to.

    QM_Rufus_Den.jpeg
    IMG_8059.png
    Ex Archer M. Huntington Collection (1870-1955); American Numismatic Society (1001.1.25440) as part of a loan from the Hispanic Society of America in 1947

    8 is David Hendin.
    John_Hyrcanus_Prutah.jpeg
    IMG_4178.jpeg
     
    Johndakerftw, NOS, Bing and 2 others like this.
  5. Curtis

    Curtis Well-Known Member

    OH! I forgot, you can only edit for 30 minutes! Oh well, I'll reply with all at once, but that's a great start. Three excellent examples from the collections of BCD, David Hendin, and Archer Huntington/Hispanic Society of America/American Numismatic Society! Thanks for sharing them, @Curtisimo !

    I've got one of the smaller AEs from the same city, Krannon, also from the BCD Coll (Thessaly II 952.2):
    Krannon BCD Thessaly II 115-4.png

    But unfortunately someone lost the tag between the original sale and when I got it.

    However, I do have a lot of the "V. ex Thess." ones! From 1991, 1992, 1993, 1994, a 1985 " "V.," Thess., Oct. 1985, 2000 drs." (the earliest & only one I've noticed w/ V in quotes or in Greek Drachmas not DM?), other years I'm sure. Notice my Pharkadon AR Obol is also "V. ex Thess. Apr 94" and purchased in the same currency (DM/Deutsche Marks), so it sounds like he bought our two coins together.

    Here are a few more of my BCD tags from Thessaly, Phalanna (I have ~50 total, but there are people out there with literally thousands):
    EX-BCD Coins Labels Phalanna AE X 11.jpg

    I believe "ex Thess." must mean some kind of single surface find in Thessaly. (Hoards are usually given a specific phrase, though I think he used "Thessalian Lot" for CH8.132: “Phalanna (?), Greece, 1991” Hoard.)

    There are also all the "T/ne ex. Thess.," "C.C. ex Thess." and others (incl. just "Ex Thess.") in different currencies, so those may be particular sellers (as opposed to methods of find/acquisition).

    Some day I'll finally contact the BCD Library and start seeing how much they're willing to reveal.
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2023
    Johndakerftw, paschka, NOS and 2 others like this.
  6. Curtisimo

    Curtisimo the Great(ish)

    In the spirit of the thread I will add one additional tag for folks to guess as well as a few tags I don’t know about and could use some help with.

    11. Two tags for the same collector. One hand written on scrap paper. One very neatly written on yellow paper with a semi-circular indention at the top. From the collection of a German philologist formed mostly in the mid-20th century.

    Ticket-1.jpeg
    Ticket-2.jpeg

    Some tags I have not identified yet. Any help appreciated.

    The description of the coin indicated a collection formed in the 1960s.
    Ticket_Galerius_Follis.jpeg

    A good friend on CT suggested that this might be from Dennis Kroh of Empire Coins. I have not been able to confirm this.
    IMG_4742.jpeg
     
  7. red_spork

    red_spork Triumvir monetalis

    Here are a couple fun ones from the same collector. I don't know his name but I do know the alias that seemingly everyone refers to this collection by. Does anyone else? He purchased a lotta coins from or through Malter and usually the pen writing is red ink but on the one ticket here it's black
    Screen Shot 2023-08-15 at 9.00.38 AM.png

    Screen Shot 2023-08-15 at 9.02.33 AM.png
     
    Curtis likes this.
  8. Curtis

    Curtis Well-Known Member

    Oh yes, the great "Southern California Collector = S.C. Collection"! If I'm not mistaken.

    Fascinating example of a collection known only from its collector tags -- much as kings or magistrates are sometimes known only from the inscriptions on their coins! Wouldn't it be interesting to have a Republican coin of a Moneyer known only from coins, from the SC Coll., known only from its tags?

    I still haven't found one of my own...yet....

    But there was a great thread here about that collection (April to May 2019): https://www.cointalk.com/threads/seeking-id-for-1970s-possibly-much-older-ticket.337629/
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2023
  9. Curtis

    Curtis Well-Known Member

    Those would be Slg. Prof. Dr. Hildebrecht Hommel (1899-1996) [on Deutsche wiki], right? Your top one couldn't have been an inheritance coin (since it was bought at the 1969 G. Hirsch sale), but didn't his collection also include much of his father's, Fritz Hommel (1854–1936), the Orientalist (other parts donated)? (Maybe F.H. was a philologist too?)

    Interesting how different the handwriting is on those two tags! That's a point of variation worth noticing. Some collectors produce highly standardized tags, instantly recognizable by format, handwriting, and/or medium. Others can look completely different, on tag to the next.

    Thanks for posting all these. I hope you don't mind that I save many of these ones posted in coin groups (with original post URL, author/photographer, the collector attribution or clues to identity when not known). Those will be great additions to the "database"!

    Interesting -- I haven't seen any Kroh / Empire tags before. That would be great to positively ID.
    Before reading your caption my instinct was that it's an Italian tag. (Just my impression based on tags I've received, that use of red, blue, black is very common in Italy -- a few other countries, incl. Switz. It's interesting how localized collector tag practices can be.)
    I guess the FIALIA is just for the legend abbreviation FIL on that type (RIC 1383, Faustina Jr. Sestertius). Also the Italian word for Philia...

    FWIW, here are my "writing samples" for Dennis Kroh. (I was amazed to discover he still sells new copies of his classic Ancient Coin Reference Reviews for less than used copies often auction for! Quickly ordered a duplicate, so I have a "collection copy" & "reading copy," which I prefer when I have something inscribed/signed by author.)

    He's known for his "calligraphic" tendencies & fondness for fountain pens, but that may not extend to his dealer tags, not sure.
    Kroh Inscribed Signed Copies.jpg
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2023
    Curtisimo likes this.
  10. red_spork

    red_spork Triumvir monetalis

    This is of course correct. The SC Collection is an interesting one. Pretty good coins, mostly bought through a single dealer and later sold through a single dealer, mostly direct to other dealers. So there's little recorded information about the collection as a whole and nothing I've ever been able to gather about the collector. Even the dealers who are sometimes willing to divulge a little more info than they probably should seem to honestly know nothing. A mystery
     
    Curtis likes this.
  11. Curtis

    Curtis Well-Known Member

    Michael Malter is still around... I wonder if he knows & he would share? I guess the other alternative might be to try the Ancient Coin Club of LA.

    Once "SC" has passed away, maybe that would free up anyone who actually does know (which might only be Michael Malter, at this point).

    I've also wondered about another Southern California collection that bought heavily from Malter: recently sold by CNG as "the S & S Collection." (I recall you may have posted some.) CNG's bio, excerpted from Triton XXVI Catalog (10 Jan 2023, p. 8):

    ...an extensive holding formed between 1983 and 2002 by a husband-and-wife team of collectors residing in California. Both spouses are passionate about history and art, and they developed a fascination with historical coins during their extensive travels together. They formed close connections with many prominent dealers and auction houses, including Numismatic Fine Arts, Joel Malter, Edward Waddell, Frank Kovacs, and Classical Numismatic Group, and obtained coins via private treaty and auction....​

    I got a pair with (honestly, for) Rindge sale tags from Malter.

    Not 100% sure, but the pencil on the back seems like it's probably by S & S:

    S and S Rindge Malter Tags RRC Denarii E.jpg
     
    Curtisimo likes this.
  12. Curtis

    Curtis Well-Known Member

    And, since I discovered I can't edit in the answers, below are the answers for the original 10.

    (Numismatic biography/bibliography can be endlessly fascinating. I consider mine to be a "bibliographic collection." All these are included in my "Provenance Glossary," but I haven't yet filled in all of their biographies, etc.: https://conservatoricoins.com/provenance-coins/#Provenance-Glossary).​

    1. BCD Collection. (As noted above, I have an annotated biblio & collection page about BCD coins & catalogs -- which links to other useful ones like Valentian's BCD Catalogs page [I printed his page/notes to keep on the shelf w/ my BCD catalogs]).

    2. Lindgren Collection = Henry Clay Lindgren (1914-2005). Collection was published in three volumes that became important references for Roman Provincial and Greek Bronzes. [More on my coins/books ex Lindgren on FAC](https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=103980.msg782682#msg782682)

    3. Salton Collection = Mark M. Salton-Schlessinger (1914-2005) & Lottie Salton (née Aronson, 1924-2020). I have about 8 or 9 ex Salton coins now, depending how you count the one he sold to K. Bressett in the 50s. Also some of his sale catalogs; the unsold often just stayed in the collection.

    4. Phil DiMarzio Collection & Lee Toone Collection. Lee Toone being the owner of Hookmoor (recently closed the website) & coauthor with Hugh Cloke of London Mint of Constantius and Constantine. Many from the DiMarzio Londinium Collection were plate coins or cited in LMCC (or its Addenda), some of which came from "CT Collections," described as "Authors' Collections" in the book. In this case, the little square tags are Toone's (as shown in the British Numismatic Society's photo files of collector tags, linked above).

    5. “Morris” = Phil Peck Collection. Curtis Clay knew Phil Peck since college (Princeton, c. 1962/3), and has shared his personal knowledge of the collection and collector in previous posts (e.g., CT 355927, Comment 4195978). Unfortunately my 3 known ex-Pecks were encapsulated & the envelopes discarded (that sizzling sound is my boiling whenever I think about that), but there are multiple thread's about Phil Peck's envelopes; here is one:
    https://www.cointalk.com/threads/356841/
    (I wonder, do Morris Peck and Phil Peck have a younger brother Jeff? The numis. lit. seller, Jeff Peck, could be of the right age & part of the country.)

    6. David Hendin Collection. Well-known, of course, for his Guide to Biblical Coins, now in the 6th edition.

    7. Cornelius Vermeule III Collection (1925-2008). Longtime Curator of ancient coins & other classical antiquities at the Boston Museum of Fine Art. Author of many numismatic articles & books. He bought a bunch of Lockett's Greek & Roman Provincial bronzes from the final sale of Lockett's ancients at Glendining in 1961 (as did Mark Salton, above), which were then sold by CNG (both of my Lockett-Vermeule came through Triton III). Since they were in group lots and not photographed, the tag is usually the only way to identify them (although in the case of my Nero above, it was illustrated by Glendining). Many of those were previously from Lord Grantley and other important collections (mine include one Pierre Strauss Collection, the other still unknown, possibly one of the numismatists Lincoln of London).

    8. Jay M. Galst (1950-2020) Collection. See my blog post, “[Provenance Glossary: Dr. Jay M. Galst (1950-2020)](https://conservatoricoins.com/jay-galst-collection/).” Important NY collector active in the numismatic community. Author of Ophthalmologia, Optica & Visio in Nummis. See my blog post, “Provenance Glossary: Dr. Jay M. Galst (1950-2020)

    9. ANS, HSA, Huntington. A long, controversial, fascinating story! American Numismatic Society tag, loan from Hispanic Society of American museum, donated in the 1940s by Archer Huntington (1870-1955). Extracting from my previous post, "Collecting Museum Coins on a Budget":

    Between 2008 and 2013, the Archer Huntington (1870-1955) Collection was the subject of public controversy and legal wrangling between two museums, the ANS and HSA, over which would control the fate of the coins and their potential deaccession and sale. In the end, they were sold, but many were donated again to the ANS, and some – like those below – even “re-deaccessioned” and sold again!​

    10. Morcom Collection = Christopher Morcom & his grandfather Col. R.K. Morcom. A great collection -- or collections. Some of Lt. Colonel Reginald Keble Morcom's coins were sold by Ratto (the auction catalog was used by John Spring as the cover for his 2009 new classic, Ancient Coin Auction Catalogs 1880-1980), though apparently even some of those remained to be inherited by his grandsons. The coins were split East / West between John (of SNG Morcom) and Christopher (CNG 76 [part], "Christopher Morcom Collection of pedigreed Coins of Greece and the Aegaean Islands”).

    Note: Not the tragic young Christopher Morcom (1911-1930), famous for his relationship with mathematician Alan Turing (1912-1954). But, if I recall correctly, his nephew.
     
    Curtisimo likes this.
  13. Curtisimo

    Curtisimo the Great(ish)

    Ding ding ding! Correct on both counts Curtis. The collection was started by Hildebrecht’s father Fritz. The Hommel Roman collection was extremely extensive comprising over 8,000 coins.

    The coin these tags belong to:
    L_CAS_LON_CSH_L.jpeg
    Ex Prof Dr Hildebrecht Hommel Collection, acquired from Hirsch, Auction 63 (July 1969), lot 2454; Ex Dr. Busso Peus Nachf., Auction 422 (April 26, 2018), lot 424 (part of); Ex Kölner Münzkabinet Auction 109, Lot 360 (November 16, 2018)

    This tag is the one written by Hildebrecht himself. The ones I’ve seen in his handwriting all have the red mark on the top left. The tags I’ve seen of his fathers are in much neater handwriting that is in a mix of cursive and block and written on reused material such as old envelopes.
    Ticket-1.jpeg

    This tag (with the semi-circular indention at the top) was written later which is shown by the fact that similar tags come with both the Fritz and Hildebrecht coins. I believe there is more than one handwritting style for these tickets. These tickets were probably a later attempt to organize the entire collection with consistent tags. I’ve heard it suggested that perhaps this was done with the assistance of Prof. Hommel’s research assistants at the University of Tubingen.
    Ticket-2.jpeg

    Please do. If you ever compile these into a resource on your website let me know. I’d love to use it as a reference.
     
    Bing and Curtis like this.
  14. Curtisimo

    Curtisimo the Great(ish)

    Thanks for the additional information. I believe that the collector who suggested Kroh did so because the coin he bought directly from Kroh came with a very similar tag. I suspect it may be that both coins go back to an older collection and Kroh simply passed the tag along with the coin. I have been planning to reach out to Kroh on it to confirm but haven’t yet done so.

    Your suggestion of an Italian tag makes a lot of sense. The auction house described this coin as being from a “European Collection” formed in the 1980s. The mystery continues…

    Speaking of mysteries I have another coin with an interesting tag worth talking about. The auction description said this coin and envelope came from the inventory of Karl Kress from the 1950s/60s. Kress died in 1969 so that is certainly possible. I don’t have any of the Kress catalogs so I’ve never been able to check.

    You seem to be very knowledgeable on this topic. Any thoughts?

    Gortyna_Stater_LB.jpeg
    Karl_Kress_1950-60_Tag_Gortyna_Stater.jpeg
     
    Curtis and Bing like this.
  15. Curtis

    Curtis Well-Known Member

    Interesting... I don't think I recognize it, but I'll save it in my unidentified tags file in case I ever come across one.

    I've got one coin from a Karl Kress catalog, but sadly none of the catalogs themselves. (I do see them with some frequency, and have bid on a bunch of duplicates from this period that were sold last year by the ANS Library on ebay, but the bids went higher than I was willing to pay.)

    Unfortunately, only one Kress catalog has been digitized & published online to my knowledge (17 April 1944, w/ 7 plates ancient, of 12 total): https://digi.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/diglit/kress1944_04_17/ (see also rNumis/Kress)

    But there are several more available catalogs from the Kress predecessor, Otto Helbing Nachf.: see these search results on HEIDI or from the rNumis page.

    There is an interesting history to this particular firm (Helbing --> Kress).
    From my notes (I'll edit in some prior threads if I can find them):

    Otto Helbing founded the firm in 1878 (retired 1912). He was part of the famous numismatic Hirsch family. His nephews Moritz Hirsch (d. 1914) and Heinrich Hirsch (1868-1941) got their start at Helbing.

    Gerhard Hirsch (1903–1982, son of Moritz) was co-owner of the business until the Nazis forced him out and arrested him c. 1937-9 (he survived the war and started a new firm in 1953 which survives today as G. Hirsch Nachf., which considers itself the continuation of Helbing and Germany's oldest dealership -- I think today owned by G. Hirsch's niece or another relative).

    It was a Jewish business, so the Nazis seized and gave it to Karl Kress. (There's been some discussion & confusion about Kress' role & identity; there was a German art photographer by that name who was a POW of the Allies & worked with "The Monuments Men," but apparently that's not him.)

    In the 1940s the firm was used to liquidate coins seized by the Nazis from the Jews (or assets that people were forced to sell). By the 1960s, however, the coins being sold are not considered to have a "red flag provenance" (which could mean investigate further to make sure they're not on a looted property list).

    I have one coin from Kress, this is from Kress 121 (4 Dec 1961), Lot 198, a Pomegranate Stater from Pamphylia, Side. I'd love to check Kress 121 for any consignor or prov. info:

    Pamphylia Side Stater.jpg

    It was later published in Atlan's book on the Side mint and included in a couple Malloy sales:

    Atlan 35 Side Stater Malloy.jpg




    WWII & Numismatics & Collector Tags:

    I actually have a sub-collection of numismatists affected by WWII (including being killed, sent to exile, imprisoned, and having fought in the militaries of both sides). It includes at least a dozen or more different collectors (including the Salton Collection & Library, recently sold), with numerous associated coins from their collections, books from their libraries, auction catalogs from the period, and other provenance ephemera (including collector tags).

    Here's one:

    A collector tag from the collection of Elvira Clain-Stefanelli (1914-2001), in her hand:
    Quintillus Clain-Stefanelli tag.png
    She and her husband, Vladimir Clain-Stefanelli (1914-1982) were both imprisoned at Buchenwald Concentration Camp for about 18 months (1943-5) as state enemies because Vladimir's passport had been used by another Nazi enemy to escape.

    They came to America and spent decades as the Smithsonian's curators of the National Numismatic Collection. Elvira wrote several important books, especially her monumental classic (1985) Numismatic Bibliography. Prior to that, she'd written Select Numismatic Bibliography in 1965.

    The Clain-Stefanelli's had a huge collection with 1,000s of coins, and often kept dealers tags and little scraps of paper with them, but few were sold with their own hand-written tags. Of my dozens of coins from their collection, this is one of the only ones to come with their tags.

    Confirming that it was one of their handwriting could've been a challenge. Luckily, I had handwriting samples from both (Vladimir's isn't shown here).

    My copy of Elvira's 1965 book was signed and inscribed by her to a certain "Mary Reichenbach" (I've been unable to figure out exactly who that is). Happily, the handwriting matches the Quintillus tag above:

    Clain-Stefanelli 1965 Select Numismatic Bibliography Inscribed CROP.jpg
     
    Curtisimo and Bing like this.
  16. Curtis

    Curtis Well-Known Member

    Aha!

    I thought that one was familiar. I don't know who the collector was, but Justin Lee (not active on here I don't think) had some of these. He sent me these images in a Numisforums message last year, but I'm sure he'd be okay sharing the photos. (I'll message him a link to this thread.)

    These three images are all for one coin (two sides of a hand-written card, I think, plus a typed card):

    upload_2023-8-24_19-34-49.png

    For comparison, again:
    [​IMG]
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Aug 24, 2023
    Curtisimo likes this.
  17. Curtis

    Curtis Well-Known Member

    Here's an example of a ticket handwriting comparison that I just completed.

    I showed the Cornelius Vermeule Ticket above -- but I hadn't worked out a match to the mystery ticket until just now.

    It was also from the Lockett Collection and has an even older ticket (late 19th century, using the old 1887 edition of Historia Nummorum, not the 1911), on which only the "AE 8" is in Lockett's hand.

    Who's ticket is that?

    Nero Phrygia Eumeneia Lockett Sextic.jpg

    Lockett's purchase book indicates he bought the coin from "Lincoln" (no date), who was an important London coin dealer from mid-19th to early-20th century.

    I found the tickets with matching details in an article on the NGC website: "NGC Ancients: A Pedigreed Irish Collection of Ancient Coins," or "the MacCormack Collection (assembled ca. 1868-1900)." (Examples from the collection on ACSearch.)

    At a glance it may not be obvious that they are in the same hand. But compare the "Obv. Nude bust r.", the distinctive "Obv" (always upper left), "with" (always "wi th"), distinctive "R," and the "See" (always lower left) for references, and others. The sharper images are from my ticket, the blurry ones extracted from NGC's photo of MacCormack tickets:

    Phrygia Eumenia Nero Lincoln Lockett Ticket MacCormack Comparison.png

    Clearly the same hand wrote these two tickets. It's possibly "MacCormack," but perhaps both sets were written by a prior collector or dealer -- most likely by one of the Lincolns (of London), or another collector whose coins were sold by Lincoln.

    Here are the tickets (mine above, MacCormack below):

    Phrygia Eumenia Nero Lockett Lincoln MacCormack Ticket Samples.jpg

    I extracted those reference images from a group photo on the NGC website. I may have to write and see if I can talk to whoever cataloged that collection there:

    MacCormack Collection tickets 1868-1900 NGC.jpg
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2023
    Heavymetal, Curtisimo and Bing like this.
  18. Curtisimo

    Curtisimo the Great(ish)

    Wonderful work on the research and comparison of the handwriting. Very impressive!

    I’d love to see a “Curtis’s Top 10 Favorite Provenances” post one day.

    ……………………………….

    Here is another one from the Michael Kelly Collection.
    Brutus_Den_D.jpeg
    Michael_Kelly_Collection_Tag_Brvtvs_Den.jpeg
     
    Bing and Curtis like this.
  19. Curtis

    Curtis Well-Known Member

    Good one, I’ve seen lots of ex-Michael Kelly coins online (and bid on some), but never the tags. Into the "database"!

    Beautiful Brutus! I love the complete ring w/ axes (?) extending beyond it. Now that I look, amazing how many have that. I can't tell if they're all die-cracks or if some dies did it intentionally.
    (One, two: Cracks? Three, four: Maybe deliberate? I guess the answers can be found in the RRDP/Schaefer Binders with some patience. Either way, I like it!)


    I like that idea! I’ve got about ~250 of my favorite provenances cataloged. My favorite 5-10 would be the unexpected & unusual ones, I think.

    One of them would have to be one my first coins ever (bought in 1991 when I was 12), my Corinth Stater. Purchased with no provenance at all, but many years later I found it when paging through the Pozzi Collection (top r. corner of Pl. LIII), cataloged by Jacob Hirsch for the first Naville Ars Classica sale in 1921:

    Corinth Stater Athena Pegasos Pozzi.png

    Pozzi Boutin Corinth Stater.jpg
    Serge Boutin's 1979 catalog of Pozzi's European coins (ex Mark & Lottie Salton Library).
    Dr. Pozzi at Home (1881) by John Singer Sargent (the wikipedia entry; and wiki for Samuel Jean de Pozzi (1846-1918)).​

    I’ve been (slowly) building a provenance collection website for that kind of stuff. I’ve posted ~74 coins so far (sorry, loads slowly!): Greek West (Part 1) [32 Coins], Greek East (Part 2) [24 Coins], and Roman Egypt (Part 4) [18 Coins].

    But many of my favorites are still in draft form, not yet public: Roman Provincial (Part 3), Republican/Imperial (Part 5), Byzantine et al. (Part 6), and Numismatic Literature w/ Provenance/Bookplates/Signatures (Part 7).

    (They all connect to my “Provenance Glossary” page, which I’m also gradually filling in so others can use it to find out more about many of the commonly encountered private collections.)
     
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2023
    Curtisimo, Bing and paschka like this.
  20. Curtisimo

    Curtisimo the Great(ish)

    Here is a tag I’m currently researching but don’t have any good leads on yet.

    Has anyone else seen any similar tags? @Curtis ?

    IMG_6012.jpeg
     
    Curtis likes this.
  21. Curtis

    Curtis Well-Known Member

    It certainly looks familiar. Mid-twentieth century. British.
    • Possibly bought at Spink, 1941? With private price code? I wonder what/who P.T.O. is?
    • If you spot another weird "AR" like that, you'll know you have your match!
    • Maybe not Lockett's, but his handwriting and tag styles seem so variable, it wouldn't shock me. From his era and social milieu, though, I think.
    • Some similarity to Lord Grantley, who also had highly variable tags (maybe these guys had secretaries or professional catalogers writing some of them?).
      The reverse format seems similar -- name &/or date of seller above a 3 (?) digit code separated by diagonal slashes.
      From the BNS docs (I have one Grantley ticket, but not at home to photo, @Sulla80 I think has at least one):
    Grantley Lord John Richard Brinsley Norton Tags BNS Coin Tickets.png

    For this one I would make sure I'd checked the documents on the BNS Coin Tickets page ("http" no "s," see NOTES):
    http://www.britnumsoc.org/contributors?view=article&id=266:6-people-pages-coin-tickets

    NOTES:
    • The main Coin Tickets page, with links to the different PDFs, seems to have moved.
    • Site certificate expired? I have to remove the "s" from "https://" or tell my browser to "proceed anyway (unsafe)."
    • I think the direct links to the PDFs from the top comment are unchanged (those ending .pdf in the quote below).
    • BNS' Coin Tickets documents have been updated over time, so it's worth checking back once in a while. (It's always to add or move info, not delete.) I have saved all the PDFs (in case the site goes down for real!), so I just look over my version(s) to see if anything is changed.
    • Alternately, go to http://britnumsoc.org & search Coin Tickets, which leads me to http://www.britnumsoc.org/contribut...ople-pages-coin-tickets&catid=2:uncategorised
     
    Curtisimo likes this.
Draft saved Draft deleted

Share This Page