Where does CAC buy and sell coins?

Why does that matter? David Hall is the final arbiter of all grading questions and conflicts anyway.

 

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Let's say you're a dealer who is a customer of PCGS. Among the last few coins sent in, you think some very valuable ones were under-graded. So you break them out of the slabs, and before you can send them for re-grading, another dealer makes a good offer. You need cash at the moment, so you sell the coins. A couple of months later, you see some of the same coins in PCGS slabs but at higher grades than you received. You recognize the coins because they are quite rare and have characteristic marks, toning, etc. Further, they're being offered by David Hall Rare Coins. Time to call regulators and consult a lawyer. Regulators and courts take a dim view of corporate insiders gaining an unfair advantage over customers. Could turn out to be a nothing: Mr. Hall may have acquired the coins after they were graded. On the other hand, he may have submitted them, and there may be a good case.

The above scenario can be cast in endless variations. I don't think David Hall grades his own coins or is allowed to influence their grading. Not only would it be unethical, but probably illegal (PCGS is part of a NASDAQ-listed corporation). For him to do so, would fly in the face of one of the chief reasons TPG services evolved: put an end to dealers over-grading their stock.

I would guess there is a company policy on employees, relatives of employees, and businesses owned by employees submitting coins for grading. Hopefully, it would be forbidden to all, but if allowed, it should be double blind: graders should not know whose coin it is; the employee should not know who graded their coin. Yes, I've heard graders can't submit, but what about other employees? I've done a bit of searching, but haven't found the black and white on it.

Finally, Mr. Hall has said repeatedly that DHRC does not submit coins for grading. There was a long thread on this topic at https://forums.collectors.com/messa...ORDFRM=&STARTPAGE=1&FTVAR_FORUMVIEWTMP=Linear eight years ago.

Apparently at one time, DHRC or its predecessor was a submission center for PCGS, but company-owned coins were never submitted, and today, it is not even a submission center.

Cal

 

You completely missed my point. David Hall is the final arbiter of any grading disputes regarding PCGS coins - "Presidential Review." In the end, every PCGS coin grades what he wants it to grade.

 

Well Dave, you were referencing my point that a grader might show favoritism if he/she knew a coin was owned by Mr. Hall. Not surprisingly, I assumed that had something to do with your comment. However, because it appears that Mr. Hall doesn't submit coins, it doesn't matter whether he is directly involved in grading.

Cal

 

All I'm trying to do is deflect you from what appears to be the certainty that this is a world-shattering issue and one of the greater scandals of our time. Me, I couldn't care less because PCGS' opinion on anything is a non-factor in my thinking. They're only as important as you make them.

 

I agree that some of the concerns brought up about favoritism or insider influence are valid, but they are also pretty baseless. If the market ever decided that these guys were being unethical or purposely minipulating the market for personal gain, any confidence in them would be quickly destroyed and their market share along with it. They just have too much stake in the game to chase every last dollar. Frankly I don't know how they would have time to do so without a massive staff doing underhanded deeds all day long;the volume in which they trade is just way to high.

 

You think? That's the way ALL the grading services got started. There were ONLY TWO impartial, we don't give a rat's what you think services in the history of numismatics that I know of and that's the way it should be in an ideal world.

A grading service should be in an "Ivory Tower" rendering a professional opinion that you can take or leave; not need to rely on the market or income - a well funded endowment. Your coin is AU, if you don't like it - shove it, we don't need you, we don't care if you ever use us, say/write anything you like, our grading will not change...sort of like a Supreme Court Justice - there for life no matter what.

A little history: First came the original ANACS in DC; however, they DID NOT grade coins for the public but used a strict "technical" grading system DEVELOPED by employees for internal records and coin ID. ANACS was like an untouchable "Ivory Tower" (good or bad) when it came to authentication although they made some mistakes. ANA funded the project as a basically independent entity. It was a real shocker when after a year or two the place started making a huge amount of money. That's one of the main reasons it was moved to CO - control of the money and practices!

Unfortunately, the FIRST TPGS - INSAB was not independent. They were staffed by the former ANACS employees and started grading the coins they authenticated FREE OF CHARGE using the technical grading system they had made.

Soon, ANA published a grading guide and ANACS ( the second TPGS) began grading coins they authenticated. Unfortunately, the ANA Guide had little in common with the TRUE technical system because the distinguished and knowledgeable numismatists who wrote the book NEVER UNDERSTOOD or ever used the actual technical system that HAD PROVED for almost a decade to be precise, simple, and very strict.

Unfortunately, true technical grading did not consider a coins, value, rarity, or eye-appeal! It would NEVER work in the commercial market. Eventually, for that reason, INSAB went out of business. ANACS continued to grade coins. While not the first, they are the oldest grading service still in business. The grading they used which UNFORTUNATELY was not followed/used by major professionals in the commercial market brought about the establishment of PCGS and others that followed.

ALL TPGS need to turn a profit. They are not independent or endowed. That's a big problem. They are subject to change, greed, and the whims of the market. CAC is too. Fortunately, a companies reputation is important and that may keep many of the abuses in your post to a minimum or non-existent.

 

I just looked at this thread again. It is sort of like the US Congress not being allowed to make "insider" trades based on what they know and learn ...

 

Depends how you look at it. The ANACS name is, but they have been bought and sold a few times. PCGS and I believe NGC as well are both older at this point under their current respective ownership groups.

 

I guess that's one way to look at it. In my ignorance, I've believed a business with an identity stays the same no matter who the CEO, employees, location, or new owner's are. So the ANACS entity is still ANACS, the oldest running TPGS. That's the way I look at it.

Calling all attorneys - is this correct?

 

I Need more please...

So, ANACS is a company with the same name. with different employees, different owners; yet doing the same thing - authenticating & grading coins! When did it NOT become the first established TPGS still doing business? When the second director left? When it was sold by ANA? When it moved to Ohio?

 

Generally I agree, but not in instances were really only the name stayed the same while everything else was started from scratch in a new location.

 

Neither did I as they were NOT the first, they were the second. After INSAB (the first TPGS) went belly-up, ANACS became the oldest still in existence.

No disagreement here either. Every grading company has changed their original grading standards. NGC changed locations at least four times! Never mind what ICG and ANACS did to each other requiring a $$$,$$$ lawsuit that ICG won!

Sure you can change my opinion, just not on this as you are splitting hairs. So, Proctor & Gamble is not the same company because they changed the composition of a bar of their soap...

 

Only one person is splitting hairs in this thread and it's not Doug.

 

Let's play a game: What's the name of the TPGS you believe has been in business the longest?

1. PCGS
2. NGC
3. IGG
4. SEGS
5. ANACS
6. I'll worm out

Answer: None of the above qualify as they all have changed and are different from the original.