A question for Maundy Coin Experts

Discussion in 'World Coins' started by johnmilton, May 25, 2023.

  1. johnmilton

    johnmilton Well-Known Member

    I have been studying the coinage during the reign of King George III. During that time there was a severe coin shortage because the Town of London Mint was old and antiquated.

    I noted in the Spink guide that there are extensive listings for the 1, 2, 3 and 4 pence silver coins in the circulated grades. Did those coins, which were used for Maundy sets, have any impact on the coin shortage? Did they just slip out into circulation after they were issued, or were they made to be used in commerce?
     
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  3. The Eidolon

    The Eidolon Well-Known Member

    Interesting question! George III had a long reign. Are you referring to the period affected by the French Revolution (~1789-1815)? I would guess the total mintage of Maundy coins would be too small to make much of a dent even if all of them had made it into circulation. I don't think the mints decrepitude was the primary factor.

    From what I can remember from "The Big Problem of Small Change":
    1) Before the French Revolution, the gold/silver price ratio for UK coinage was a little off, which tended to cause silver coins not to circulate.

    2) During the wars, I think the gold convertibility of paper money was temporarily suspended, which made all hard money more attractive compared to paper.

    3) The French raid on Wales in 1797 caused panic of a mass naval invasion. This raised the price of copper, as it was used in cladding for ship construction. This made coins like the 1797 "cartwheel" 1 and 2 pence too heavy to circulate as their copper value came to exceed their face value.

    Anyway, I guess I'm trying to say multiple shifts in the demand curve for money caused by economic shocks caused a lot of the shortages in coins of multiple metals. I don't thing the Maundy mintages were nearly enough to offset that. I'm not an expert nor a historian, of course. 1797 Cartwheel comparison.jpg

    Edit: I forgot, another good source on this era: Good Money: Birmingham Buton Makers, The Royal Mint, and the Beginnings of Modern Coinage 1775-1821
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2023
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  4. robp

    robp Well-Known Member

    Prior to the 19th century they were regular currency coins which were used for, but not struck exclusively for the Maundy Ceremony. This explains why not all years exist and why sometimes there are missing denominations. eg 1765, which is a key date has no penny, and only 20ish of the other three denominations exist - which is still better than 1764 when none were struck.

    From the new coinage issues onwards until 1908 they were struck for the ceremony, but additional sets could be ordered from the mint. From 1909 they were only struck for the ceremony, which explains why the price for 1909 & 1910 sets is nearly double that of the prior years.

    Some sets were broken up and spent. The usual missing piece being the 3d which was identical in design to the current coins, whereas the other three pieces are unambigously Maundy.
     
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  5. johnmilton

    johnmilton Well-Known Member

    The @The Eidolon makes a good point about the demand for copper for ship bottoms. Still, “the cart wheels” were given their excessive weight because they were examples of copper coins that had a metal content that was close to their face value.

    Why didn’t the Royal Mint produce more copper coins when there was a demand for them prior to the troubles with France? Another response I got elsewhere said that there was a shortage of silver which explained why the mint was not making those coins. The gold coinage was curtailed when large quantities of gold were shipped to the continent to fund surrogate countries to fight Napoleon. It seems like a lot of the capacity of the Tower of London Mint was sitting idle.

    Things didn’t get straightened out until the coinage reform and opening of a new mint with steam driven presses in 1817.

    @robp makes a good point that Maundy sets were not a big item at this time. Still, it’s hard to believe that tiny coins, like the silver penny and two pence, were much good in circulation.
     
  6. The Eidolon

    The Eidolon Well-Known Member

    I think copper coinage was not legal tender in that era. It was issued for convenience for making change, but debts had to be paid in silver or gold. Places like taverns could accumulate huge surpluses of copper coins, but have a lot of trouble converting them to silver at par.

    Counterfeiting was also a huge problem in that era. Full-weight copper coins were very heavy and unpopular. But anti-counterfeiting technology was very limited until Bolton's machine-minted coinage. So underweight copper coins just increased the potential profits for counterfeiters. I think the mint didn't have a lot of great options until changes in the law and technology made practical the issuance of larger-denomination copper coinage.
     
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  7. johnmilton

    johnmilton Well-Known Member

    The Parys Mine tokens were introduced in 1787 to pay the mine workers. The mine operators had no choice because there was no money to use to pay them.

    1787 2d Parys Mine Co All.jpg

    Also in 1787, the British Mint made silver shillings and sixpence for the first time in many years. Does anyone think that there might have been a connection?

    Sixpence

    1787 George III 6 Pence All.jpg

    Shilling

    1787 George III Shilling All.jpg
     
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  8. offa the saxon

    offa the saxon Well-Known Member

    Lots of companies and local authorities minted their own local coinage due to the crisis in the supply of small change due to the napoleonic war, I think it would be quite reasonable to assume that Maundy money circulated at the same time. I have a well circulated George III Maundy penny in my collection
     
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  9. johnmilton

    johnmilton Well-Known Member

    Here are a couple of them.

    Bristol Gar Token All.jpg

    Shepapard Token All.jpg
     
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