This can't be good for the Brand, or no end in sight...

I don't know exactly where you are going with the question, but if you crack the fake out of a counterfeit slab, you have a fake that is no longer in the slab. These guys do not put real coins in their fake slabs. The whole thing is bogus.

Many years ago there was a guy in the U.S. who did that who was trying to piggyback on the PCGS name. He put real coins in fake slabs and probably fudged on the grades he put on the holders. He was caught and put out of business.

 

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I don't buy them, so it wouldn't matter to me.

 

They need to focus on their IP addresses...

 

I don’t think that will work as most providers assign IPs dynamically and even if not, there are so many ways to hide your original source IP… why aren’t listings of new sellers checked more thoroughly?

 

Just wondering how deceitful the actual counterfeit coins are. Are they easy to identify as counterfeit absent of their counterfeit slab?

 

There are no hard and fast guidelines for that. Some Chinese counterfeits are pretty bad while others are scary. A number of the pieces that Jack has posted don’t stand up well when compared to the real thing. Still it takes experience and talent to spot counterfeits. I have been a collector for 60 years, and counterfeit detection is the one area of my game that continually needs more work on my part.

 

Many of the CC Morgan fakes use a common reverse from 2018 and do not match the date's VAM reverses.

 

To muddy the waters further, one can now buy empty slabs, custom printed labels, and holograms directly from China if you prefer DIY at home.

 

They are actually the same slabs the Chinese source of these uses...

 

Having a PM discussion with a Friend on this post- I believe part of the reason there are so many bad "PCGS" slabs/ coins is the lack of images on many of the PCGS certs.

NGC has at least imaged most of theirs going back some time and even though the images aren't great they still help.

But really it comes down to if you don't know the series don't buy the coin IMHO...

Here's a recent NGC 1911 $10 "gold" I just reported- pretty obvious to even someone like me who doesn't know the series which one is bad!

 

All dies (counterfeit and genuine) have characteristics and traits (markers - scratches, gouges, date and mint mark placement, etc or lack there of a genuine die) that are inherited by the coins they strike. These can be used much like a fingerprint to identify a specific die from which a coin was struck. Just wondering whether an analysis of these cans has been done to identify the counterfeit die's fingerprint/characteristics.

 

There are “fingerprints,” but you need a photographic mind and a huge memory to recall them without help (book, photos etc.). The “vampire” marks on a Draped Bust dollar are a classic example.

The crooks make their dies by copying genuine coins. Therefore knowing die varieties will not save you alone. Marks on the genuine coin are transferred to the counterfeits so identical marks on two coins is a bad sign. The trouble is you are usually looking at only on coin at a time.

Other markers are improper relief or missing or weak details on the highest part of the design. Sometimes, if you are very familiar with the real thing, it just doesn’t look right. I got fooled in a counterfeit class by a bad piece that was almost perfectly executed, but the date style was wrong.

As you can see, counterfeit detection is not easy. It’s a discipline unto itself. Buying coins in holders is a first defense, but it’s not perfect. If a bad coin gets into a real holder, you have recourse with the certification company unless it’s “Joe Blow’s fly by night grading service.” That’s why it’s never a good idea to buy an expensive raw coin, unless you really know the series and know what you are doing.

 

Fortunately many of them use the same reverse type in years where they should not exist. Fakers make one reverse die thinking they're all the same, and pair it with a bunch of obverse dates. Of course this doesn't help when the type happens to be correct, but you can weed out a lot of them this way. I've seen it a lot with Barbers; post-1901 types used on pre-1901 coins.

 

Folks who know me know I have a pretty good memory, attention to detail and great research records...

The posted fakes in bad slabs are low level counterfeits in my opinion, nowhere near the level of the really deceptive ones I have been chasing since back in late 2015, but a threat to the Hobby all the same.

Not trying to hiJACK my own post, but these are a few Charmy imaged in our meet at Central States:



These really aren't good for the Brand...

 

No - I am the one who did the hijacking - posting about counterfeit coins - when the subject was about counterfeit slabs. Sorry

 

Hey @Jack D. Young any of those coins
CAC ?

 

No.

 

NGC already attended to their cert:

 

If this is such a wide spread problem, and many people know the signs , maybe
its time to call it to PCGS attention.

 

???

PCGS is well aware; I post to the point of pushing being banned in their forum...