Barry Murphy Off to NGC

So he drank the Kool Aid and took the money?

 

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I've considered this argument before (but would like to hear it expounded directly by either Vagi or Murphy) and, as Volodya states, I too have no real rebuttal nor in fact would I try to argue against it, since I can fully understand the value of an expert's assurance to a novice collector.

Logically, then, I would see the market for ancient coins segmenting into at least two partitions -- beginners who buy slabs of low-to-medium priced coins, and knowledgeable collectors who buy mainly "raw" coins but might buy slabbed coins and crack them out, since they have the expertise to evaluate ancients on their own.

I'm skeptical about this. If you're purely an investor and not a collector, maybe this would appeal to you, but collectors of high-end coins will never buy a slabbed coin in preference to an unslabbed coin, since it's not possible to fully evaluate an ancient coin unless it's "raw."

 

I immediately lower the price I am willing to pay for a coin when I know it is slabbed.....and I usually just decide not to bid in the end.

Can you imagine going to buy a fine diamond and have someone hand it to you in an acrylic tomb and tell you it is worth more than if you bought it raw, as they hand you a loop to examine it. It would seem like a con to most people. And it would be. THERE IS NO BENEFIT. IT IS ALL ILLUSION.

This idea that slabbing is doing a service to collectors by bringing in newbies, looking for a safe entry into the hobby.............well that is bull, because authenticity is not guaranteed. If that is their justification for slabbing, then they are admitting to a deliberate deception.

If the intent is to bring people into the hobby to increase demand and inflate prices......................well...........that is the real result of all this..........then I buy the reasoning.

But that benefits dealers....... and collectors leaving the hobby, it does not help existing collectors. In fact, this inflates the cost of cheap coins and that actually hurts low end entrants to the hobby. Pretty much undoing the logic that it will bring in new people. Just more BS excuses masquerading as service to the hobby.

I have had to make tough choices in my life and I have suffered financially in order to maintain a set of principles. I did it because I didn't want to be a sell out. I have managed to come out OK.

Folks who try to rationalize their decisions by saying "it's going to happen anyway" are the exact definition of a sell out.

Everyone sells out on something at sometime. Barry and David have sold out when it comes to ancients. I can't call it any other way.

M

 

I just hate the thought of having to talk about whether it's a 4/5 strike, or 5/5 strike (man, that'll take the fun out of this hobby)

 

Nailed it. Marketing 101 re: slabbing. Like toys for kids: the packaging costs more than the toy... What is it for? Smoke and mirrors...

Honesty and Integrity is everything.

 

Me too. I'm talking specifically big money coins. I think I would fear I'd damage an FDC aureus or something similar, and opt for the slab to protect my 30-40K investment (or 300K-400K). Of course, I would never keep a coin in a slab for the level of coins I collect (well under 5K). But have you seen the prices of US coins? There are dudes dropping serious cash.

 

I will add in my two cents on the slabbing of ancient coins and it's 'inevitability', but from the perspective of my previous collecting interest in US large cents. US large cents is one of (the only?) areas of US numismatics where slabbing does not dominate the market. You can still go to large coins shows and see a number of the copper dealers offering all their coins unslabbed, in all price ranges and grades from $50 to >$50,000. Further, the norm for serious collectors of these coins is to crack them out. Now, I understand there are a couple large copper dealers who slab most of their stock, and certainly all the coins in a major collection get slabbed for auction, but that is marketing only. As an aside, I have heard stories of Dan Holmes walking around with his 1795 reeded edge large cent in his pocket, a coin that sold for $1,200,000 in 2009, and handing it out at EAC conventions for other collectors to examine.

This is possible in large part because there is a very dedicated group of people collecting these coins and passing on the traditions and culture of collecting them. They have their own grading system and they keep their own conditional census. Basically, large cents has an amateur community of experts who maintain grading standards and census reports, they don't need TPGs to do that for them. If we want to keep ancient coins unslabbed, it will require something similar, an organized effort to maintain grading standards and culture. An effort to maintain amateur numismatic collecting and study, not just investing in coins.

Lastly, I believe both early American copper and ancients have a distinct advantage in pushing back on slabbing, they are generally very unique coins and are not fungible items even when in the same 'grade'. One huge benefit to slabbing coins like Morgan dollars is you can buy a sight unseen MS64 and generally know the quality of the coin you will receive. This is a huge benefit to dealers who are trading inventory and have commoditized the market, but ancient coins are not fungible like that. They are generally unique, hand made objects with huge variation.

 

Well stated. I abhor the concept of "inevitability". That is the mindset of sheep or lemmings.

 

Slabs are a bit of a slippery slope. Over the last few years I've seen more threads about whether you would pay extra for a slab with a limited edition tag, and about slab protectors to protect the slabs themselves, than I care to count. Yes...some people think an NGC limited edition tag is worth paying extra for. Look, Wyatt Earp apparently signed it and endorsed it more than 86 years after his death.



And unfortunately, this is now a reality too: Slab protectors!



I've even seen threads where people discussing how they wrap their slabs in plastic protectors, and then put it in a vacuum sealed bag which they then wrap inside another bag, and then place in a dark place to keep their slabs safe.

The day I have to wrap my coins in 4 or 5 layers of plastic and stick them in a dark corner to keep them safe, I'm done collecting. It's just not worth it anymore.

 

This is certainly part of the intention on the part of the slabbers -- increasing their market (and profits) by providing a pseudo-service that makes it easier for novices to buy ancient coins. So I, too, understand this reasoning although I certainly don't support it. If slabbing were a real service with some sort of guarantee -- pretty much an impossibility for ancient coins -- then I might be more favorably disposed toward this trend. But it's not, and I'm not.

Well, I can honestly say that I know whereof I speak in this price range, and I have no intention of ever slabbing my coins, or buying a slabbed coin unless I can't live without it.

Accurate, but sometimes the "inevitable" ends up not happening, so I'm not resigned to this fate.

Uniqueness is the reason that I don't think it's inevitable that all ancients will end up being slabbed.

 

Catering to the OCD collector who apparently has a bunch of other issues also.

The whole thing has a Dexter'ish feel to it.

 

I had to check QWERTY for letter placement, to make sure that was not a typo.

A proper epithet if ever there was one.

 

Ha! Auto-correct must have done that. My proofreading skills aren't what they used to be.

I've fixed it, though.

 

This still seems to be the general consensus about slabbin in Europe:

 

Well, you have inadvertently "coined" a new term.

If anyone takes offense, I will defend it as doing a service to the hobby.

I can see the promo's going forward. "Drunk E-bayer?......drooling all over those coins you buy? Our new slobber slab will protect those little metal miracles from your dribble. Saliva is the killer of coins. So protect your profits and slab before you slob...................Become a slobber. It's good for the hobby"

Had to get my gif out.

 

Man that's like Inception but for coin collectors...

 

I think it's amazing the variety of things that get slabbed these days here in the US: coins, paper money (sort of), comic books, tickets, posters, sports cards, casino chips, toys, and yes...even video games...I guess why play it when you can slab it instead

It seems like every other month there is a new grading service offering slabbed items for whatever the hobby is. Basically if you collect something the size of a small box or less, someone will be coming along shortly to tell you how your hobby must now embrace slabs.

I'm pretty sure soon we'll be seeing plastic slabs even for old books. Nothing says "love for classic literature" like encasing your first edition Wizard of Oz in a plastic tomb.

 

I guess I am a sell out also. I swore I never would, but the doctor at the hospital told me that it was going to happen anyway.

I slobbed by kid.



I should add, no more diaper smells............big plus

 

I actually wrote a fairly lengthy reply to this thread, explaining why I decided to go to work for NGC, but as some on here who don't know me have decided to make this more of a personal attack on me, I don't really feel obligated to reply anymore.

Barry Murphy