SEGS NOT HONORING GUARANTEE

You did request it to be reslabbed even if it grades lower by sending it in for a REGRADE. PCGS and NGC have crossovers and grade reviews, I don't know if SEGS has anything like that, but with ANY of them if you send it in for a REGRADE it WILL get cracked and slabbed at what their current opinion of the grade is.

Simple, you make a change on the holder label. just put a small LLC after the SEGS. All slabs with the LLC are now covered all the ones without it are not. Of course this means they now don't have to honor the guarantee on all the coins they slabbed in the past 9 years since they became an LLC, but their is precedent for that. ANACS doesn't honor the guarantee on the blue label holders of their predecessor, but they used those blue labels for about eight months before they switched to the yellow ones. So they in effect wrote off their guarantee for the coins they slabbed during their first eight months.

 

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The problem is the legal definition to the end consumer is not known unless the end consumer has reviewed the Operating Agreement, Legal Structure etc from the original company to the LLC. The new LLC's Operating Agreement and other legal documents may shed all liability. Who knows without reading all the relative documents.

Past Automotive related posts are not a good gauge as there is a Federal Regulator there with oversight, NHTSA.

Is there federal oversight for the coin graders?

Can't recall how many companies I see go out of business just to popup with about the same name and same function just to shed debt and liabilities.

The only odd thing I see is LLCs have to identify themselves as an LLC. And I don't see that on that one website. So from the consumer point of view it may be construed as they are operating as before.

I'm guessing the delay was due to the grader reviewing situation with lawyer.
I'm not a corp lawyer though, so take that with a grain of salt.

 

When you change from a corporation to an LLC someone will always remain liable for the corporations obligations. They either transfer to the LLC or they remain with the corporation and the shareholders. For example, what if the IRS wants to audit the 2006 tax returns for the corporation are they going to be told oh no no that company no longer exists. What if the IRS determines the corporation underpaid by in 2006 by 10K do you think they are going to be told no one is responsible because we changed from a corp to an LLC? Another example Coca cola has many lawsuits against them at any given time. You think they can switch from a corp to and LLC and those lawsuits go away? It doesn't work that way or companies would be switching all the time.

 

@Ollyoccia

The only reason I'm adding to this thread is the nice way you have replied to all of us. This is some brotherly (tough) love so hope you get something out of this:

Buying ANY COIN from ANYONE can be a crap shoot. If a person does not know what they are doing, in far too many cases they are going to get what they deserve...and that goes for everything we can think of including coins.

"We as coin collectors" probably does not include you. Sure anyone who buys a coin or pulls a coin from change is a technically a "coin collector" but IMO, based on all your actions, you are not there YET. You have not learned to grade for yourself and bought a "pretty" coin. Then sent it back to be graded again???? Thankfully, at least it is in a slab.

NGC and PCGS are pretty decent at grading coins. Many other not-as-popular-services are also. Additionally, in some instances, their employees are more experienced than those at the big two.

I'll put much of the blame for your situation with you. I hope you get satisfaction as several posters have suggested positive ways to fix this - hopefully out of court. I suggest getting in touch with Briggs again.

@Jaelus

You must be referring to the misinformed mouse (WE) in your pocket putting ANACS at the same level as NGC or PCGS.

 

It does work that way, but exactly as you said - you create the LLC and buy the assets but not the liabilities.

Somebody then has to wind down the company, which includes paying off the liabilities and then closing the company (or bankrupting it if there are liabilities beyond the token value unsold).

So... start by searching the state business directory

https://tnbear.tn.gov/ECommerce/FilingSearch.aspx

This gives you some interesting data, including

Status: Inactive - Withdrawn
Initial Filing Date: 03/08/2001
Formed in: GEORGIA
Inactive Date: 07/25/2007

The annual reports are on microfilm, but probably available if somebody was in TN.

The Georgia Secretary of State's directory has about the same data https://ecorp.sos.ga.gov/BusinessSe...2666&businessType=Domestic Profit Corporation

It gets more interesting...

Southern Entities Grading Service, LLC

https://tnbear.tn.gov/ECommerce/Fil...084051170023240165120066224059160204166049110

Status: Inactive - Dissolved
Initial Filing Date: 09/24/2007
Formed in: TENNESSEE
Inactive Date: 08/08/2015


So you have to wonder who they are today...

 

Makes me think it's just Larry Briggs, doing SEGS as a hobby now?

 

Hi CDB you were giving me a headache on an already bad day so I blocked you. Now that my headache is gone I unblocked you. To be honest if he wanted to buy the coin for what I paid that would be enough for me.

 

He still has people working for him I spoke with a couple of them

 

Call him up and ask him, if you haven't.

 

I left messages to speak with him no call back yet. Will let you know what happens.

 

It could be argued that you're responsible for a few headaches here too... ten pages and you still haven't acknowledged that you were way off base with the $13,000 accusation, although this is a baby step in the right direction, and better late than never, I suppose.

With all due respect, I'm not sure you deserve to walk away clean from this one. While I still believe that regardless of if he has a legal responsibility to do so, he does have a moral one to live up to his word, but that doesn't mean you don't shoulder some of the blame here. One doesn't walk into a casino, gamble away their money, then because they whine/cry about it, get handed back everything they lost, but that's exactly what you seem to be expecting here. You chose to gamble - no one placed a gun to your head - so he shouldn't have to cover your entire loss just because that's what you want. A fair SEGS-level price for the coin in a 66 holder with no return, or the SEGS difference between 64 and 66 with your coin returned, his choice, that's it.

 

Books I could care less what you think. You don't seem to understand the meaning of a guarantee nor do you understand the meaning of false advertising. Both apply in this case the days of selling snake oil are over period end of story!!!

 

I believe Larry is in Ohio most of the time rather than at SEGS in Chattanooga.

 

Yes god forbid someone expects a grading company to pay up when they downgrade their own coins on a regrade when their guarantee specifically states they will do so.....

 

If you want to quote, at least have the decency not to schmuckishly remove one sentence from its context, or perhaps reading isn't your strong suit?

Here... in bold so you can't miss it this time....

Now, is this really too hard for you to understand, or do I need to underline it too?

 

This is sooooo stupid, and I'm speaking of SEGS. I know of at least a half a dozen instances when a coin was sent to a grading service for review of the grade and although the submitter was in the right and the coin should have been downgraded IT WAS NOT and that's because the TPGS can said: "It conforms to OUR grading standards." SEGS really screwed up in this case.

 

It was in perfect context. You continue to try and place blame on the OP for expecting them to live up to their guarantee. You posts have shown that time and again in this thread. Your casino example was completely off base to what actually happened. It is much more like signing a contract with someone that says if they do x y will happen then they do x but y doesn't happen and somehow you are at fault for expecting y.

 

It would seemingly depend on the context and more information is necessary. There are instances when courts can pierce the corporate/LLC veil. I do not believe a corporation can transfer all of its assets (including name, trade dress, other intellectual property rights, etc.) to an alter ego to dodge liability from its creditors when the principals, stockholders, or other officers, etc., are all the same.

 

SEGS did the same thing to me recently on a coin about a month ago, and downgraded a coin and refused compensation. Assuming arguendo that you buy into the argument that the LLC and company restructuring would avoid liability, the new incarnation of SEGS legally had no right to crack the holder which was arguably my property. Once it did, I believe it assumed liability. Older slabs may have inherent value to slab collector themselves (and yes SEGS has a following); thus, it is arguable that it damaged my holder and property rights. By reholdering the coin, I think it is nothing more than a nefarious attempt to void the warranty.

It is noteworthy that I wasn't expect or demanding a large payout, but I expect SEGS to be fair and not try to play games with various corporate entities and alter egos to attempt to dodge liability. I only sent the coin because I didn't want to sell the coin on eBay that was overgraded (given that SEGS has or at least had somewhat of a decent reputation) where it could be used to scam someone in the future. There were also some other gems in Mr. Briggs's letter, but I am undecided whether I should post it now or not.

I have not had the opportunity to follow-up with Mr. Briggs, but I will be doing so to give him an opportunity to make it right. If he does not, I too will be pursuing this further.

 

I am in the same situation with SEGS, and Larry's letter seemed to suggest that the sole basis for dodging liability was a change in corporate structure - that is, that his new LLC is not liable for the debts of the old corporation. There was never any indication that there never was a guarantee for pre-2007 coins, only that he felt that he could not be held liable. While corporations and LLCs are discrete and independent entities at law, the rule announced by Briggs is not absolute.