PCGS Coinfacts good or bad ??

With CF in my phone, I can review data anywhere..

 

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Such as ???

I note that the Secret Service swooped in on that CT Morgan case...if the SS gets involved in a guy selling a few fake GSA MSDs, I would think anybody selling ASEs, AGEs, or other coins would attract even more attention. Those other coins ARE legal tender.

 

I'm unsure what you're were asking; I'm going to address the last sentence in what you quoted from me in the hopes that is what you wanted clarified.

The Hobby Protection Act, as revised in 2014, specifically names venues (such as Ebay) which willingly participate in the process of importing unmarked counterfeits as violators of the Federal Trade Commission Act. Here's the language from 15 USC 2101(d):

....with the understanding that "person" is defined elsewhere in that statute to include companies. All that's necessary is for them to be made aware that they're in violation, and they're liable if they fail to act.

 

I agree that in a lot of cases it is a bit of paranoia not breaking down the fakes more as the best do that themselves. I do believe that is the logic behind keeping things closer to the chest so to speak for every minute detail and would agree some of the less capable would be helped, but they are not really a threat in the first place.

It's not so much a personal worry of mine as I am a believer that the TPGs and the series experts don't actually put out every single thing they know, I would be shocked if they don't have a few identity tricks up their sleeves they never disclose. As an example when a new fake is identified the information about it and diagnostics gets out very fast. We get what we need to know and every now and then an Omega comes along that can fool everyone for a long long time. I believe that was an eye opener that lead to a little more proactive study.

Bullet proof vests probably would have been a better analogy before. We have a general idea, but the tech has to be made before you can figure out a defense against it

 

SuperD, you answered my question. The HPA is a powerful tool, but we need fast action in response to credible allegations of counterfeiting.

You would think that with all the $$$ eBay does with coins, they could hire 1 or 2 people to solely focus on that. Nobody is going to counterfeit 99% of the other junk sold on the site. They need to focus on coins, baseball cards, and maybe art. And baseball cards are a dying industry and fewer people are into art compared to coins.

Alibaba in China, a combination of Amazon and Ebay, has a huge counterfeiting problem.

 

The could hire a team if they want, but they're in business to make money for themselves. The more things sold the more they make. In my opinion they don't care as long as they make money

 

But don't they have a 14-day Ebay Guarantee or something ?

I can't believe a small team of professionals costing < $1,000,000 a year is going to even be a rounding error on their quarterly financials. OTOH, the belief that they go after fraud and counterfeits would be worth alot of currency (no pun intended) with coin buyers. They could be THE go-to place for coin dealers/sellers. Heck, I bet some of their more active buyers -- maybe even the U.S. Mint and/or Treasury/Secret Service -- would chip in some bucks.

Can anybody tell me from their website how much of their total business is from coins/currency ? Listings, dollar amounts, # of sellers, etc ? I can check the 10-K's and maybe get details there.

 

They had that. Community Coin Watch - CCW - a collaboration of Ebay employees and hobby experts dedicated to reacting to reported auctions. You'd report an auction, somebody in the know would investigate, and Ebay would whack it as long as the evidence passed muster. Auctions sometimes disappeared in minutes, and almost always within 24 hours as long as the reporter was accurate in their evaluation. I know of at least one regular poster here (Colonial John; he's admitted it publicly) who was a member of CCW. They had people of his caliber on board.

They disbanded it a few years ago.

It'll take more than a few people, just for coins. There are currently ~850,000 listings in the "US Coins" category alone....

 

It's free I like it

 

Didn't know this, but then again it was during my OFF period of coin collecting.

I would be happy if they went after the most egregious blatant sellers of frauds.

 

Who's we -- this site, you, or serious collectors ?

I could see a problem on some coins where experts are not sure about the fraud. Nothing you can do there. Again....it's the BLATANT sellers of counterfeits.

I wouldn't worry so much about the occasional seller accidentally trying to sell a dubious raw Morgan or penny for $50. I'm more concerned with the sophisticated sellers with multiple listings totaling thousands or tens of thousands of dollars who goes unpunished.

You would expect most of the frauds to be raw vs. TPG but maybe not ?

JMHO..............

 

I had no trouble with the process, and even a flawed system is better than none at all.

 

I wasn't; I was only referring to the efficiency and capability with which they acted upon my reporting, and I was probably one of the....more enthusiastic reporters of bad auctions. Nothing I ever reported went without action, and I never saw a hint of other than complete efficiency from them. I reported lots of auctions.

Then again, I provided proof of my point with every report. I explained the specific problem, and offered links when necessary. It didn't take an "expert" to determine the accuracy of what I reported.

If they do it again - when they do it again, if I get my way - they need to build it right the first time, with a realistic view of what's possible and necessary. I believe that a sufficiently-efficient system, populated by people who know numismatics, the Ebay system and most importantly how to acquire the information needed for an accurate adjudication, could make enough of a dent in the problem to reduce the number of people willing to test them in the first place. That would reduce the amount of manpower.

They just have to accept the idea of paid experts, given incentive via compensation to devote sufficient hours to the task to make it work. And other experts - like Colonial John, for instance - who cold be on-call for email questions. You don't have to cover every_single_coin in expert fashion; there would obviously have to be some difficult cost/benefit analysis for the more arcane problems.

Doug, do you have a feel for the volume of reports CCW used to receive?

 

Don't let the fact that we occasionally disagree ever convince you that I don't have the greatest of admiration for your willingness to be the guy who does this. You've chosen a path that few can walk, and I couldn't respect you more for it.

 

FiddleHead: "... marketing-wise, I think it's smart [to make CF Free]. I use it more now and I'm actually considering taking out a PCGS membership ... I never liked the pay to view component of PCGS - now I have a more favorable opinion of them. "

SuperDave: "That means making the resources available to identify fakes more accessible. Free. Widely disseminated, widely discussed."


Sure, I have always believed in making information freely available on the Internet. All the articles and other information on CoinWeek are free.

I have contributed articles to solely online publications since 2007. Starting around 2003, many of my articles in <i>Numismatic News</i> newspaper became available for free, online. It is good for the hobby for information and commentary to be available for free.

Goldfinger: "I know many of you are more serious and dedicated coin collectors. I'm a guy who goes in-and-out (in now ! ) but I think with more bullion buyers being part of the 'coin collecting' group and now potentially at risk from fraud, this is something that I think can motivate people to pay for protection and a useful service."

I do not perceive much of a connection between PCGS CoinFacts and bullion. Some of the high resolution images of genuine bullion 'coins' on PCGS CoinFacts may be useful in identifying fakes. PCGS CoinFacts, though, is really aimed at collectors and dealers of coins that collectors demand, especially series that are collected 'by date' and coins suitable for type sets.

SuperDave: "I believe that only the willingness/ability to invest in superior technology and metallurgy allows us to differentiate counterfeits at_all these days - the vast majority of counterfeiters are 'cottage businesses,' and ..."

If we are talking about U.S. coins from 1793 to the present, then I contend that both PCGS and NGC do an excellent job of authentication. No service will ever be perfect. It is extremely rare, however, to see a U.S. coin of questionable authenticity in a PCGS or NGC holder. In regards to the topic of this thread, I am not sure that forgeries are a major concern. Admittedly, colonials and territorials are different matters.

IMO, the biggest problem is coin doctoring, as even leading experts have trouble identifying doctored coins. More resources need to be devoted to addressing this problem!

The Specter of Coin Doctoring and The Survival of Great Coins

The Formal Introduction of the PCGS 'Coin Sniffer' at the PCGS Luncheon