Ancients => This Little Piggy had Roast Beef

I agree, Doug. Archaic is very difficult to define.

Other than separating city issues into archaic and classical, David Sear in Greek Coins and Their Values, seems to avoid date ranges or definitions.

In the preface to his Handbook of Greek Coinage series, Oliver D. Hoover, perhaps inadvertently, illustrates the problem:

He gives the following date ranges:
Archaic - 7th century to 479 BC
Classical - 479 to 336 BC
Hellenistic - 336 BC to 31 BC

However, he also says:

"During the Archaic period, human representations follow a style similar to that in contemporary sculpture: the eye is often represented full face, even when in profile, and the mouth is always formed into what is called the "Archaic smile." Full-length figures are represented in a manner similar to that of ancient Egyptian wall illustrations, with the head and legs correctly in profile, but the torso viewed from the front. Movement follows a similar archaic convention: a running figure is depicted as if it were in a kneeling stance. For birds in flight, the body is rendered in profile while the wings are seen as if viewed from below.
In Greece and the East, coins of this period had rather thick, almost globular, flans, and no reverse types; instead, they had an incuse of some form..."

Thus, he defines the Archaic period first as a date range, then as a matter of style, and finally as relating to fabric! Of course, there are coins of Archaic style struck later than 479 BC (Athenian tetradrachms being but one example). And there are coins which used reverse punches later than 479 (electrum issues of Mysia among many others).

I'm so confused!...

 

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Apparently I lump all of those periods together

maybe rather than saying that I love "archaic" coins, I should merely state that I love "incuse" coins?

 

I just love "OLD" coins.

 

I recall referring to my Istros drachm as the "highlight of my archaic collection," when I first posted it a few years ago. A few months later I remember looking up definitions, and came across the 479 BC date as @ancientnut posted above. I wasn't sure if I should have corrected that statement or not. Is 350-400 BC old enough, or should that be considered classical? 479 BC seems to be the cutoff between archaic and transitional Athenian tetradrachms. Sounds like a good date to me.

-Michael

 

Nice new coin Mr. Stevex6. I think we have an archaic (499-494 BC) pig coin (winged variety) with an inverse relief punch to contribute.......


IONIA, Klazomenai
AR Diobol (Pigasus)
499-494 B.C.
10mm, 1.08 grams
Obv: Forepart of winged boar right
Rev: Quadripartite incuse square with K in lower right quarter.
Grade: gVF toned on good metal
Other: The HUS KLAZOMENAIOS was a gigantic winged sow which terrorized the Greek town of Klazomenai in Ionia. SNG Copenhagen 10; SNG Kayhan 336. Purchased while diving at Christmas Cove STT, USVI. (Ex CNG auction 334, 3 September 2014 Lot 80).

 

I think I would call these "archaic", but what do I know, eh?

ACHAEMENID EMPIRE
AR Siglos
OBVERSE: Persian king or hero in kneeling/running stance right, holding spear and bow
REVERSE: Incuse punch
Struck at Persia, 485-420 BC
5.5g, 16mm
Carradice Type IIIb, Group A/B (pl. XII, 18)


THASOS
AR Drachm
OBVERSE: Naked satyr running right carrying struggling nymph
REVERSE: Quadripartite incluse Square
Struck at Thasos, 463-411 BC
3.40g, 15.9mm
Sear 1748


AEOLIS, KYME
AR Hemiobol
OBVERSE: Eagle's head left, KY to left (M beneath the head, nearly off flan)
REVERSE: Quadrapartite incuse square of mill-sail pattern
Struck at Aeolis, 450BC
.46g, 7mm
SNG Cop 32

 

I have another "Archaic"


Mysia Kyzicus
AR Hemiobol
480-450 BCE
Boar - Lion
Sear 3850
Ex: @red_spork collection

 

I agree with Mr. Hoover's paragraph but the 479 BC date is harder to love. I have too many coins only dated to 500-450 BC or some other span. I have severe troubles with the idea of forcing all Greek coins into Athenian terminology which is where we probably get the 479 number. I only asked to make the point that few answers expressible in less than a paragraph cover a question worth asking. Exception: Ides or March - that one is hard to dispute.

 

Great discussion about the periods!

 

Coincidentally, I read something talking about this very issue, today. In G.K. Jenkins' Book, "Ancient Greek Coins," he states the end of Archaic coinage came about during the Persian wars; 599-450BC.


A much more embarrassing source, Wikipedia, states that "Archaic Greece was the period in Greek history lasting from the eighth century BC to the second Persian invasion of Greece in 480 BC, part of the Greco-Persian wars."

So it appears, ironically, that Archaic Greek coins, died along with Leonidas. Ironic since the Spartans forbid the use of coinage until much later.

-Michael

 

Interesting: HOWEVER, @stevex6 stated to post any of your ARCHAIC coins in Post #2... sooooooo.... I feel not constrained by just GREEK history; but posted Chinese, Indian, Egyptian (given it is a Scarab, not a coin), Italia, AND some Greek... Kinda like the Cereal Variety Pack at the grocery store...

Looks like some cultures had coinage prior to the Lydians... curious.

 

This discussion reminds me of the other thread discussing the fall of the Roman Empire. How do you peg a date on it? G.K. Jenkins may have described it best, "time of the Persian Wars." That's a 50 year expanse. It is difficult to describe a coin transition occuring in a single year. Is it based on Rulers, fall of empires, change of methods, artistic transition, war, or a vague mixture?

 

Hey gang => thanks for your coin comments and thanks for your great coin additions (I always appreciate thread participation)

Sorry for the delay in responding ... the wife and I were on a bit of a vacation in the big city of Winnipeg (that's the Manitoba version of puttin' on the Ritz!!) ... yup, we were livin' large!!

=> tucked-away in a fancy hotel, dining out in fancy restaurants and throwing fist-fulls of cash around like we were drunken sailors at a strip-club!! (good times)

 

Very awesome coin Gol! I am very jelly! I have always admired the Greek fractions with animal designs. And my sniper rifle is back in business. Now i'm back from my travels in central asia, I don't have anything to spent money on but COINS! It was an awesome holiday btw to countries ending in 'stan'... even Afghanistan!

 

And they're all so freaking perfect!

 

Smeag => I'm glad to hear that you had a great time with the ol' Stan Clan.

Man, I love that huge K-coin on the ground beside you ... sweet

 

Sadly ...

=> this sweet ride is going to side-line my coin purchases for a long, long while

Ford Explorer Sport (Turbo) ... yah, I got a bit excited test-drivin' this baby


... yah, this is the 2nd new car purchase this year!!



(coin-budget => gone!!)

Ford Edge (purchased last autumn) ... an absolutely awesome buy


... apparently, after driving 3 Nissan Pathfinders during the past 20 years

=> we're now a Ford family (who knew?)

 

Oh man... no more stevex6 CNG Wednesdays??

 

*help*

 

Sorry to hear that little brother. I bought a new car last year and paid cash. I thought I was through with coins for a while, but I've been able to sneak one (or two or three) in just about every month. BTW, nice looking car. Yours or hers?