Hello new to the site, need a opinion.

It is an interesting thing. Here are my observations as a dealer:

The weak pegasus is correct for the series. The style is pretty good, but the helmet makes me hesitate. This series, with the thymiaterion on the reverse, should also be accompanied by a monogram just behind Athenas neck. This is missing on this example. I looked through all my references and scanned several hundred auctions and found no others missing the monogram. The surfaces seem to have been heat treated. Not sure what that means, but over all I would suggest a replica. However we should not always condemn a coin just from poo photos. It needs to be seen by someone in hand (and make sure they know what they are doing!). A large regional coin show will likely have many ancient dealers who can let you know.

 

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I wondered about the lack of monogram behind her head but I think it is there (ligate AV). There is a die break (or casting flaw?) obscuring part of it.

I still think there is a good chance that it is authentic. Perhaps it was exposed to high heat at some point in its past.

If an experienced local dealer cannot make the call with high confidence, perhaps it's a good candidate for sending to David Sear for authentication. That's not cheap and it would cut into the OP's profits significantly since the coin isn't a high-dollar specimen.

@Burntwynn5 , please let us know if you are able to get an in-hand opinion. I'm curious as to the verdict

 

NGC ancients is probably cheaper than Sear. Also would like to see images I requested in Post#40 unless it is too much trouble.

 

But NGC doesn't guarantee authenticity of the ancient coins they slab. If they slabbed it, there would still be a question mark, albeit a much smaller question mark. They could also decline to slab it for several reasons, one of which could be "questionable authenticity"-- meaning they aren't committing to calling it fake nor are they calling it authentic. Wasted money.

Copied from NGC's website:

NGC Ancients is committed to grading only genuine coins, but it does not guarantee authenticity, genuineness or attribution, nor is any guarantee of these aspects implied. NGC Ancients will only holder coins it considers genuine at the time of submission, but it cannot guarantee the authenticity, genuineness, type, attribution or date of any coin it holders.

 

Holy C! What good are they! What a let down. Bet most people (LIKE ME) had no clue they are paying for virtually nothing. Goes to show how good the fakes must be getting. Thanks for the wake up!

PS What does Sear guarantee for the fee he charges?

 

NGC doesnt do much other than put a coin into a plastic tomb. They dont even fully attribute them. Sear guaranteed authenticity, and will give you a laminated photo certificate.

 

An excellent question.

The service appears to be most beneficial to collectors who don't wish to be bothered about having to expend energy to learn anything about the coin they are buying or who view the purchase as a commodity, a gamble, or a source of empty bragging. "Yeah, but mine's an AU star and 1800 years old!! It must be worth a fortune!"

It is beneficial to auction houses who have a massive modern coin collector customer base. Those collectors are accustomed to paying monster prices for mass-produced, often artistically bland clones with prices varying tremendously based on trivial differences in quality. Ancients are a real bargain compared to modern coins, but new collectors might feel squeamish about buying a coin whose current value can't be looked up in a red book or gray sheet.

If the coin comes in a tidy plastic case with an acronym they know, their comfort level is increased and the auction house might be able to sell more coins-- to customers who are largely accustomed to paying higher prices for their modern coins. A win for the auction house.

I'm not sure if there is any formal guarantee. A quick browse of his website didn't say anything about a guarantee. What you do get is a thorough evaluation by an elite numismatist, with considerably more information including references.

@stevex6, among others, has used Sears' service in the past. Hey Steve-O, post some pictures of your certs

 

Just spoke with a finalizer. The only thing they guarantee is the GRADE!

So what happens if they grade a fake? Nothing as long as it is graded correctly.

Thanks again for the education,
"Outsider"

 

Most of the auction sites listed on Sixbid.com provide an actual guarantee if you purchase from them. A typical guarantee reads:

The Auction House offers an unconditional and unlimited guarantee for the authenticity of coins. All identifications and descriptions of the items sold in this catalogue are statements of opinion and were made in good faith.

This means that if it is ever determined that the coin is not authentic, the auction house will refund your purchase price and buyer's fee. There is no time limit on this guarantee, nor is it limited to the original purchaser of the coin. So if you sell the coin and the new owner later determines the coin is counterfeit, you can still get your money back from the auctioneer.

Of course, the auction house still has to be in business if you ever make a claim of non-authenticity, but that's a separate issue.

 

I'm going to go out on a limb here and defend NGC's unwillingness to guarantee the ancient coins that they slab.

In contrast to an auction house, NGC is not making a 17.5% or greater buyer's fee on the coins, nor do they have the extensive knowledge and history that most of the better auction houses have accumulated over the past decades.

In order to actually guarantee authenticity, NGC would need to charge extra for this feature, and "lay off" the "guarantee" risk to an insurance company willing to accept NGC's expertise in the ancient coin field. My guess is that there are few, if any, insurers willing to do this, and NGC is not in a position to self-guarantee without exorbitant additional charges.

If I were running NGC, I would not offer an authenticity guarantee either. It's just a fundamentally sound business decision, although it pretty much renders their slabbing service worthless (in my opinion) for ancients.

However, I do think NGC should be willing to refund their slabbing fees if the coin is later shown to be counterfeit. At least this would be some sort of guarantee.

 

That explanation makes sense, including the last paragraph. As stated in my comment above (#44), if NGC slabs an ancient coin the odds of it being authentic are high. Carelessly slabbing fakes would be detrimental to their business.

I agree that slabbing offers no real value or purpose in ancient numismatics. If I am in the position of needing an experienced opinion about a tricky coin, I will send it to David Sear rather than NGC.

 

Hi: I have used Sear on several occasions... below find a couple Cert of Authenticity and a Forgery Report!

He states on the Cert of Authenticity

"This coin has been personally inspected and authenticated by

Issued to: (me)
On: date
He signs
Describes the coin in detail

Grades it

Footer: DAVID R. SEAR / A.C.C.S. his contact info
"The information provided on this certificate has been researched in good faith by the signatory utilizing fifty-seven years of professional experience in ancient numismatics. However, no guarantee is made regarding the accuracy of the opinions or data conveyed above and no liability of any kind is assumed. It should be borne in mind that the authentication and grading of ancient coins is subjective and opinions can, and do, vary among experts."

I was able to RETURN my forgery to the Seller for a full refund when I tendered a copy of the certificate.





For me, Sear offers an excellent service, and like I stated above: I have used him several times. Especially to my advantage when I had a suspected forgery and the Seller was fighting me over it. Once I produced the Sear Forgery Report, the fight was over!

(The Seller rectified by returning my coin cost, Sear fees, and freight to and from for the whole process...He was good for that!)

(My apologies for the poor pics: I took quick pics with my camera, and I no longer have a steady hand. My coin camera is set up for Macro shots, and could not change it to contribute)

 

You might get a premium if the coin comes with a Sear certificate, add the cost to the starting price of the coin. However, if it turns out to be a fake, you have lost your money. Is it worth it for peace of mind?

 

Nothing is what most people seem to want when the pay full price. Slabbed or not, you can buy very ordinary coins from sellers who know nothing except how much something similar brought from a full service and knowledgeable source. We have frequently discussed here certain auction houses that seem to have a fondness for tooled or fake coins but they continue to attract customers who would not think of buying from eBay where the lack of expertise is similar in many cases. Ancient slabbers are doing a wonderful thing for that part of the market coming over from modern US where the slab is sacred. The fact remains that the average collector who started in ancients in the last millennium (or as Prince said it, 1999) will not have one. New collectors feel comfortable with the plastic when what they should be seeking is the expertise.

This is a big problem to me and I am perfectly capable of IDing my own coins. For the price of their slab you should get a long form explaining what there is about the coin that contributed to the ID or the opinion not a couple letters that may or may not apply to the coin. You really can not authenticate many coins without being up on the differences in mint styles and fabrics. David Vagi certainly has these skills but they do not convey on a slab label. Sear charges extra for a long form certificate but at least he has room of a complete sentence.

This seems a little long for a T shirt logo but I like the thought. We have lost members here because some of us have a bad attitude toward people whose only question is 'What is it worth?' Tough.

This said, NCG is by far the best of the slabbers with the rest being closer to jokes than experts. I have been outbid three times on slabbed coins on eBay that I wanted as an example of a minor error in the label. NGC errors are harder to find by a hundred times compared to the others. I still want nothing to do with the process but at least feel their labels have a reasonable chance of being correct if not something I'd bet on. No one will guarantee ancients beyond refunding you purchase price. A TPG mistake on a $100000 coin would require $1000 to underwrite. How may $40 slabs do you have to sell to cover that loss in a game where many coins are disputed by at least a few 'experts'. If a reasonable student makes one error in a thousand and people only send in coins with some doubt, being so perfect you will guarantee is hard. I admire NGC's honesty in returning many coins as 'Unable to determine'. That is the name of our game.

 

man, I must have at least 50 of these things, but only a few photographed and they're all in different locations (sorry, at some point I'll try to herd them all together and take photos of the entire album)

When I first started collecting ancients, I had zero-game (say it ain't so!!), so I was sending pretty much all of my coins to Dave's California Ranch ...

=> my thinking was => my wife, or whoever inherited my coins would be able to sell them with confidence, right? (but after a while, I got pretty good at knowing which ones are "probably" authentic)

=> I would still send them to Sear if there was a question about one of my sweeties (ummm, but please refrain from challenging all of my coins ... that gag will get old, pretty quickly ... thanks, gang)

 

Dude... don't you just DREAD the Forgery Reports! When it works out in the end, and the money is returned, it is ok... But I get this sinking feeling when I open the envelope and see the bold red FORGERY REPORT... ugh... Big bummer for me.

 

Now this is just an opinion and not an attack on any TPGS:

IMHO, If a grading company authenticates/grades US coins they should "back" their opinion 100%. If that company decides to grade/authenticate tokens and error coins, they should back that service also. NGC and other services started with US coins. Then, as they became more "educated" they expanded to slab other parts of numismatics (does NGC guarantee the authenticity of tokens and errors? At the moment I'm ignorant of this but I will find out soon!).

Now, it seems to me that any TPGS that decides to get into the ancient field should have prepared as they have with tokens, etc... Perhaps they are not ready for "prime time" and should not have "rushed" into a field that is very difficult at the least! I don't think ICG or PCGS authenticates/grades ancients for that reason.

 

100% ... it was a bummer (I've only received that one loser report, so far)

... and yes, I was able to recover the cash, because my favourite seller was soooo embarrassed about the whole thingy (he was awesome and has remained my favourite best coin-seller)

 

The whole thing is utterly pointless so far as I am concerned. No guarantee of authenticity and many times I don't agree with the grading. If you are dead set on slabbing your coins, buy some slabs and print your own labels. A lot cheaper.

 

I understand all the good points here about guarantees. Guess I wish everything was black and white.