Thomas Virzi Collection?

As I clean up my files of the coins of Magna Graecia I came across this little over-priced bronze that I bought, primarily due to the provenance. Does anyone have a coin from this collection? Has anyone ever heard of this collection?




LUCANIA, METAPONTUM
4th-3rd Cent. BC
Persephone rt.
Barley ear, META
12mm, 2.64 grams

From the Thomas Virzi Collection 1907

During the late 19th century when he worked at Jacob Hirsch, the pre-eminent Munich coin dealer, Thomas Virzi put together perhaps the finest and most extensive collection of Greek bronze coins of Magna Graecia ever assembled. There is an extremely rare book from circa 1907 or before with photographs of 2238 coins which is the only record of the complete collection. Hirsch himself sold some coins from the collection in his sale XIX, 11 November 1907. Bank Leu sold 300 of the best coins in Zurich, Auction 6, 1973. I myself was fortunate to acquired nearly 500 of the best remaining and Alex Malloy dispersed the low end in 1980. The Thomas Virzi provenance of coins on this page is noted in the descriptions and dates back to the 19th century and is the finest possible. The provenance of all coins from the Virzi collection should be verifiable by reference to the original photographs

 

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I really like it, but I'm no help at all with that specific provenance...

 

I did not think paying multiples of the going price for the same coin was worth it but I could be wrong. People and governments are getting more and more focused on provenance every year.

 

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My page:

http://esty.ancients.info/catalogs/GreekAE.html

notes two sales of Virzi coins:

Leu 6 (5/73) HV. MQP. "Sammlung Tom Virzi, New York" 300 superb Greek AE on 15 ppl from casts + 1 color E.
Greek AE (300) highest quality coins

Malloy, Alex. South Salem, New York. Mostly low grade coins in catalogs with low production values. XVII (1980, Dec. 1) "The Virzi Collection of Greek Bronze" 588 lower-grade Greek AE (only AE) from the Virzi collection, fairly well-photographed. (The better Greek AE sold in Leu 6.)

I am not with my catalogs right now, but they could be checked to see. It might be in the Malloy catalog.

 

I would most appreciate any thing you can turn up!

 

If I'm reading what you quote from the seller correctly, then he's saying his Virzi coins are distinct from those acquired and thereafter sold by Alex Malloy. Hence, I'm thinking that Valentinian will have no luck finding your coin in the Malloy catalog. Perhaps you could write to the seller to clarify the point, especially if the coin is not showing up in the book he is referencing?

I don't know anything about the Virzi provenance apart from what's already been quoted above, but CNG auctioned off a fairly large number of them back in January, also described as ex-Edgar Owen. I managed to pick up a small group lot of four coins that included this nice ex-Virzi Hieron II bronze.

 

Not all the coins of Thomas Virzi were sold during these two auctions (Leu & Malloy). 77 Plates with the 2238 coins (!) of his collection were printed prior to these sales but it is very hard to find.

CNG website about Thomas Virzi:
'Thomas Virzi (1881-1974) was an assistant to the renowned Dr. Jacob Hirsch and sold a portion of his collection of Sicilian and Southern Italian bronzes with that firm in 1907. Additional coins were sold privately after his death, as well as in Leu 6 (8 May 1973) and Malloy XVII (1 December 1980). The only complete record of his important collection is a series of plates illustrating 2238 pieces.'

For Bronze coins of Magna Grecia & Sicily, it is a sought-after pedigree! so, congrats to both of you!

 

The only one I managed to catch during the CNG auction:

 

The Virzi saga continues: provenance aside, here is the over-priced coin of contention.
and here is one that is currently for sale on this vendors site...
These are 15mm coins. I paid too much for the one I have and the current one is asking an even higher price. And, of course, the Virzi provenance is identical.

 

it looks identical

 

Hmm, it sure does... Is the second picture from a current retail listing? Where is the listing? Looks like an Edgar Owen red background.

Edited: It is the same coin. In addition to the same flan shape, same off-centering, and same die breaks, there are what look like chips in the patina which are the same on both coins (see arrows in the images below) and the same exposed metal on the high points, making me think that is the same coin rather than both of them being cast fakes.



CNG recently sold a bunch of Edgar Owen's coins. Maybe this was one of them and he (Owen) just forgot to remove it from his Vcoins inventory. Or, maybe he sold it to someone who then flipped it to you. Maybe you should send an inquiry to Owen via Vcoins and let him know that the listing should be removed because he already sold it . I think many Vcoins dealers have trouble updating their inventory and often show coins for sale which are no longer in their possession. It must be a particularly difficult organizational task for dealers who also sell at shows.

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The pedigree information in the OP is verbatim from the current Edgar Owen listing.

 

I know. I paid $275 for the OP coin and Edgar wants $475 for the one on his site. I reached to this seller when I originally posted this thread and all he wanted to know is "who" told me it wasn't a Virzi coin.

So, not only is it not a Virzi coin it sure looks like there is more than one of these coins?!

 

Which seller are you referring to with "I reached to this seller"-- the person from whom you purchased your coin, or Edgar Owen?

I am confused. When and who said that it wasn't a Virzi coin?

When did you get your coin, and from whom? Have you spoken with Edgar Owen about the listing? Clearly the coin currently on his site is the same coin that you have in hand-- not a copy-- it is the same coin.

 

I just asked Edgar if the second coin is available. Sure, it could be an honest

I am confused.

When did you get your coin, and from whom? Have you spoken with Edgar Owen about the listing? Clearly the coin currently on his site is the same coin that you have in hand-- not a copy-- it is the exact coin.[/QUOTE]
Edgar Owen is the guy I bought this coin from originally.

 

Then I remain thoroughly confused, or else you are confused-- or maybe we both are

In post #11 above you posted your images and the images currently on Edgar Owen's site, which I took to mean that you thought they were two different coins (they are not; they are the same coin).

In your post immediately above this, I did not understand your answer about whether Owen said the currently listed coin is still available. The bottom line is that it is not currently available (maybe Owen hasn't looked at his physical inventory)-- the coin on his website is currently in your possession.

 

I bought the coin from Edgar Owen in early 2015. I posted this thread wondering about the provenance. 2 sources confirmed that this coin was not in the Bank Leu nor Malloy catalogs which showed the Virzi coins. Neither source gave me permission to use their names so I will not.

I contiue to search for coins from Lucania as it is a speacial sub-sollection area for me. And today I see this coin from the same guy (even I could tell it was the same coin) and there you have it!

 

I think Owen probably just posted the wrong image for his current listing.

As for the pedigree, if I correctly understand Prokles's response in post #9, just because this coin isn't in the Leu or Malloy catalog doesn't mean it can't be ex-Virzi, although proving it will be difficult.

 

Well for sure the coin in my possession is the coin in my possession. So you are convinced that these are 2 pictures of the same coin? No possible other explanation?