Great Southern Coins

I said basically the same thing in a later post, using the word "unethical". The example you just gave is pretty sleazy and may constitute grounds for a civil suit, but I doubt it would hold up in a criminal fraud prosecution. Grading is an opinion, and all they would have to say is that they, as professional numismatists, disagree with NGC's opinion. After all we do that all the time on this forum.

 

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Sorry, didn't see the later post. I contacted GSC, and to their credit(?), they ended the second listing. It certainly appeared to me and others that they did the above. I understand grading is an opinion, but if you take that statement to it's logical conclusion--we're all professional graders (we all have opinions), which we're not.

 

Opinions are like hinneys........we've all got one.

 

Your argument only carries weight if the TPG's are always right. Nothing could be further from the truth. There are people posting here with as much grading experience as anyone working at a TPG, and we don't agree either.

 

We can get into endless discussions about what constitutes or doesn't constitute a civil or criminal act and what questionable sales tactics fall under. (As my dad was fond of saying, Perry Mason turned everyone into a damn lawyer).

All I care about is whether a dealer I am considering doing business with is engaged in such tactics. And if he is, I really don't intend to go to vaudevillian extremes to keep from labeling him in a manner that might "offend" him or someone else. I will warn my fellow collectors off -- period.

 

I bought 2 coins from them maybe 6-7 years ago that looked ok from pictures and when I got them, they were terribly hairlined and clearly AU and cleaned tops. I returned them both and they blocked me from bidding which was fine with me since they are a terrible seller in my opinion.

 

I never said they were always right, my friend. No one is always right. No one. All I'm saying is that I would trust their judgement over anyone who is not so trained and certified in the same way I would trust a person highly skilled in any area over someone who is not so highly skilled.

 

Keep in mind, I'm playing Devil's Advocate here - I'm hoping you've read my previous opinions of GSC in this thread - when I ask, "How much experience do those folks have by comparison to your average TPG grader?" We've all seen coins in TPG slabs which raise questions about their sanity, much less their skill, and it goes without saying that there are more than a few dealers whose skills compare favorably to the best TPG talent available.

GSC isn't one of those dealers (to my mind), but holding a TPG up as proof of their ill intent doesn't hold water. Someone's urge to post that GSC is fraudulent and should be prosecuted for something comes up every few months, in every numismatic forum, and has for ten years going. Still hasn't happened, and taking that thought to its' logical conclusion means the TPG's ought to be prosecuted too. They're also taking our money for things we don't always agree with.

 

When we compare TPG grading skills to GSC's "graders" we need to consider the first two initials of "TPG". The point is to have a third party grade the coins who isn't selling you the coins.

And BTW, even though I've played devil's advocate for GSC in this thread I wouldn't hesitate to use non-legal terminology such as "sleazebag" to describe them. Their misrepresentation of coins is bad enough from a financial standpoint, but worst of all, just imagine how many new collectors have bought coins from them and later given up on numismatics after finding out they got shafted.

 

Dave, Fair enough. I certainly don't think GSC should be or could be prosecuted and wouldn't raise that idea. I'm just disappointed that I bought supposed Gem BU++ coins from GSC that turned out to be altered or way overgraded, per NGC. I don't know what to do but to take NGC's word for it. I've talked to GSC, and the only qualification they supposedly have, other than their experience, is that they are members of NGC. That's it. I have to believe that the folks at NGC, PCGS etc. know a lot more about grading coins than dealers like GSC. And most coin buyers I know look at things that way too.
Let me ask you this. If GSC claimed a 1909 S VDB Lincoln were a 'Solid Gem BU Red' coin, and you received same back from NGC or PCGS with the following grade: 'Unc Details, Altered Color', what would you think? Also-- is this just a matter of coin grading being a difference of opinion, or coin grading is subjective? I think not.

 

Question:

If one must choose to buy a coin from either GSC or Centsless, who would you rather?

 

They probably were what NGC said they were. Don't forget, we agree on this part. It was the implication in your words that this was an actionable thing I was trying to forestall, to save you some stress.

I first stumbled upon these people in the aftermath of Katrina. They were selling far uglier stuff then; it seemed to me that they'd acquired coins which were in the flood and were reselling them in plainly overhyped fashion. As time went by, the apparent quality of their offerings improved. The conclusion I draw from this history is that they've gotten better at doctoring coins over the years.

I use the term "doctoring" in conjunction with their activities, even though I do some of the very same things myself, because of intent. They're trying to artificially improve the coin for the purpose of generating profit.

I'd switch to Beanie Babies.

 

centsles?

 

I have only purchased one item from centsles, and I was giddy when it arrived. As long as you stick to his NGC or PCGS graded coins, you will be getting high quality items. The only thing that annoyed me a little (but I got over it) was that censtles literally took 4+ weeks to get my coin to me. So, SLOOOOOOOW shipping in my experience. The item I purchased from him is below.

 

Yes

 

That is to die for. Wow.

 

I think you need to draw a line of distinction between two things

Photographing an item so as to hide its flaws, describing it in overblow terms, all of that is simply puffery which is legal - caveat emptor.

Purchasing an item where an independent 3rd party has assigned it a defective status (cleaned), repackaging it with a different status and representing that different status as the results of independent 3rd party is where you cross the line. That's precisely the behavior (hiding the relationship between the slabber and the seller) where the recent PCI lawsuit found fraud had occured (see http://www.coinweek.com/coin-clubs/...ly-2-million-under-federal-racketeering-laws/ and http://news.coinupdate.com/1-9-million-fraud-judgment-raises-compelling-hobby-issues/
)

Quoting coinupdate:

 

Nice coin--and grounds for feeling giddy. And as to your point: As long as you stick to his NGC or PCGS graded coins--I couldn't agree more. And you're implying, I think, what I've argued here and elsewhere, that you can generally trust those companies over against self-appointed 'graders' (including dealers such as GSC).

 

Every coin I purchased from them was overgraded and was returned. When I posted neutral feedback I received a phone call apologizing and I subsequently agreed to revise my feedback. After I did, they blocked me from bidding again. I guess I became a "problem" bidder.

 

Interesting. I've heard that same story from others. I've actually posted negative and neutral feedback maybe a half doz. times and they still allow me to bid. And we've talked civilly on the phone. But I've also posted positive feedback too.