Arizona die break

Nice little die brakes on the two

 

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Not a die break it a die chip. Arizona state quarters were famous for items like this. I posted several when they first were released . See YN contest also about the same .

 

US COIN.COM DIE Break

 

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Have you gone to that website and checked out die brakes ? My computer skills are very limited one day all learn how to post the links (not)

 

why would i do that?

 

Thank you for your reply

 

Well, I guess you're welcome. But I still don't know why you would disagree with the other poster who correctly said that you had a die chip, and instead of saying why you might be disagreeing with him, you simply put up a website with the words 'die break'.

Have a fantastic evening.

 

Sir plain and simple I am an individual who believes that revision is needed when it comes to cuds and chips this is only my opinion and I've had it ever since I started collecting over 16 years ago just like all human beings there is a difference in beliefs and as an individual I have that right to believe what I want just like everyone else has the right to believe what they want the other member is not incorrect in what he's saying nor am I incorrect in what I'm saying this difference of opinions between cuds and chips has been going on for as long as I've been born and probably will go on long after I'm gone and if you're really interested go to my first thread (snow on the roof) this will put a lot of things in perspective for you I hope at lease where I'm coming from again thank you for your reply.ps Snow on the roof thread I believe is on page 7

 

Well, at least by reading some of the comments on the snow on the roof thread, I can now see you were referring to coins.about.com (which, by the way, even if I had been so inclined to randomly browse a site for the term die break, I could never have realized that was the site you might be referring to in this thread) and you seem to be upset when people take you to task for not acknowledging most of the stuff you are calling die breaks (like here in this thread) are more properly die chips and quite 'worthless' as it were.

1) I like the snow on the roof one but have to say it may not appeal to a lot of people for value. Popcorn trees and other minor types of spots (die chips) that you are naming may end up only being a useless naming game you play and have no real value.

2) but if you are enthralled with these minor types of die chips, you should start looking at the modern Roosevelt dimes and concentrate at noticing the ones dripping from his mouth and on his face (nose/eyebrows). You should have a field day with that.

3) about.com sites on various topics would never be my go-to site for info. In my mind, it is basically written by kindergardeners who cut/paste/rearrange content without attributing where they got the info or checking to see if what they put out is really right, and reading their sites on various topics are only mildly more interesting than reading a want-ad from an old newspaper.

 

Actually, you are incorrect. Die chip is the more proper term because it is particularly small and to disavow that as your own personal opinion doesn't make it correct. Die break, if you start actually going to sites that contain articles or items written by people who know error coins rather about.com, you might realize are much more major than this little blob.

 

Sir I respect your opinion and your entitled to it and with all due respect it's a die fracture die break potato potato it's the same no matter how we look at it one of the two dies had a boo-boo resulting in what you're looking at and yes I know boo-boo is not the proper terminology and I agree coins about is a poor reference try cuds on coins interior die brakes I kinda like that definition given that only points out the many given opinions of others that are on the Internet some I agree with some I don't that's what's great about living in the USA and Sir if you looked at the snow on the roof coin I myself cannot call the major die brakes on that coin (CHIPS) and will not even though (the book) says something different I personally don't believe everything I read I can only imagine where this great country would be if we did not make changes in the Constitution - (revised amendments to keep up with this Changing world) and Sir monetary value is not always a consideration it's what the individual likes or dislikes I know there are collectors out there that don't waste their time with coins like this that's their right and to requote myself some like Cadillac some like Ford's analogy and just out of curiosity have you gone on any of the sites and tell the operators of the sites that they are incorrect in their assessment of die brakes or have you gone on eBay and tell an individual that is selling a cud that it's not a cud it's a chip ?Sir I respect your right to disagree with me please give me the courtesy and respect my right if I disagree with you. (Impasse) must conclude that we both disagree so can we say let's just have fun in collecting and move on.ps I am always willing to learn something new please can you explain how you can have a chip without a die break ?

 

I won't quote your post because it is so painful to read (mainly because of run on sentences and changes in thought and little to no punctuation on those run on sentences). Without being mean 'to you', I have to say that whether I go to ebay and to about.com to tell them of their errors would imply that I am surfing those sites just to find something to correct, and that is so totally not the case. It isn't even worth my time or effort to do something of the sort. Ebay is known for having a bunch of mis-labeled and even fake (counterfeit, gasp!) items for sale and Ebay doesn't really care. About.com, in my opinion, as I stated before is pretty much run by kindergartners regarding the level of their content and original material. But perhaps another analogy would work better: about.com has the content and readability as a Ladies Home Journal article. I may say that in general, they are not printing false articles, but by the same token, little to no real journalism or investigation or looking to experts is being done in generating the articles I would be thinking of. By the same token, about.com is a site that tries to be the go-to place for all information, ala wikipedia, but with more commericality. Anyways, that is their modus operandi, so it would fruitless to spend my time reading all their pages, looking to correct some information because it is not technically true (when you truly look at all the things going on) or because they are only being correct enough to play to the masses.

But this site is different. It is a site where there are many levels of ability and knowledge in one subject (numismatics) that allows people to come together and both enjoy the hobby and learn new things. I perfectly think you do have the right to have your own opinion, but if it is putting things out there that could stand to be corrected so that others reading the thread will understand better, then it is worth speaking up. Ebay and about.com don't have that draw for me. Even suggesting that if I don't do that, then I should maybe not have any right to say something here is illogical and has no bearing here.

As far as your cited snow on the roof coin where you can't see the major die breaks (and then label that chips, in capitalized letters), you are still confusing the differences that can be known about this process. In some ways it is not so much you that needs to be corrected, but others who are reading and learning here. In the most general sense, any missing metal from a die at any time in it's operation could be classified as a die break. Obviously, because the die had a 'break' in it. With that line of thought, all polishing marks could be classified as a die break, because the surface of the die was 'broken'. But die break is a term that implies that the die is actually breaking or in the beginning process of breaking up due to stresses. A die chip, on the other hand, is a break in the die, usually of a very small nature, such as less than four square millimeters in area. Anything less than one square mm is not called a die break, but is called a die chip. And just because a die chips in a place or two doesn't mean that it's lifetime that die will continue to have a bigger chip or will break up. If you choose not to be as correct as you can in classifying things like this because it makes you happy to call things what you feel like calling them, then that's fine with me. But you won't have a lot of people on your side helping you learn when they recognize that you are either reluctant to learn and absorb new things that are out of your current knowledge (because you already have a term you are using for it) or impervious to having someone telling you that it is a incorrect term.

I am giving you respect in my words here, I have not been disrespectful to you in any iota nor have I not been courteous to you. The simple act of telling someone on this forum that they are wrong is not a facet of 'not giving someone respect'. Giving you the courtesy and respect for you to hold your own opinion (wrong though it may be) and put it up for all to see, does not hinge on others ignoring it or not commenting. It is an illusion that someone has to shut up and be withholding their opinions on facts in order to be courteous and respectful. Even telling me I have to respect your right to disagree with me implies that something is wrong on my part for speaking up, but nothing is wrong on your part for having an opinion you want to hold on to. Have you thought about respecting my right to say what is true that I know of? I don't see that that has played into the comments I see from you, as it is still all about you and your rights you are insinuating are not respected.

I can conclude that we both disagree about this (die break vs die chip, etc) but with all due respect, other numismatists who are learning here and come across a thread that may allow them to learn the difference in appearance between a die break or a die chip, which is defined due primarily to the size of the missing metal, should have the opportunity to clearly see examples of it and be able to recognize where to draw the line in labeling.

By all means, have fun collecting. It's what most of the people on here actually do. Just be aware that when you post, you are also, to some extent representing a person who is teaching others (not yourself) what they lack. If you or anyone here comes on and says incorrect things, then it opens it up to being corrected. And if someone corrects someone and that person is not correct for correcting them, then it opens that person up to being corrected. Nothing discourteous or disrespectful to a person in this.

 

Sir I have been teaching the general public for over 30 years and you are correct in some of your statements but like in most things it's up to the people to make their own decisions on this site it's one way or no way there is no alternative I'm just trying to give new members and alternative though you and other members may feel that it is Miss information to those people does not necessarily make it incorrect the people can make up their own mind and choose which way they want to go. But I will give them an alternative. The truth you cannot have a cud a chip or die crack without a die break this was pointed out to me last week at breakfast by a friend and their absolutely correct and when I post a thread and call what I am posting a die break if you wish to call it a chip's okay with me that doesn't mean I have to call it a chip I know several people that will call it a cud or even a die crack that's okay even with me is not my place to correct them they have the same ability as I do to research and investigate the die break in question and make up their own mind what they want to call it. But on this site you are incorrect it is a chip one-way street to me not acceptable if I wish to call it a die break to me that's what it is and if I prefer not to call it a chip that's okay to. As you can see I do not necessarily follow in the same footsteps as others Except if I'm in a mine field

 

Sir if I can ask one question from you to help me better understand is what is a chip ?

 

To better understand the what a die chip is might be to simply give a few analogies (although I will follow precede and follow this with more numismatically related references).

A die chip is simply a small 'interior' (meaning it does not involve the edge or outside portion of a coin's face) die break. You can think of it in one of these:

1) You see a canine and you call it a dog. Yes it is a dog, but then you either notice that it is still young, and not full grown or someone tells you that the dog is only 4 months old. You then call it a puppy. Why? Because there is a better term ("puppy") to convey to others what is. Is it still a dog or member of the dog family? Yes, but others who know it is a puppy who still see you calling it a dog (if you didn't know) when told it is a puppy, will not understand why you would refuse to refer to it as a puppy and then correct someone who tells you it is a puppy, essentially, that no, it's not a puppy, it's a dog. Same thing happens with other baby animals, like the difference between cats and kittens. But in animals, it comes not just with possibly a smaller size, but with a presumed age (young in growth, which will then lead to being full-grown). Animals, in this sense, tend to be called either a puppy/kitten or dog/cat, there aren't really any unique names we call the intermediate stages.

2) If you talk to parents (of humans, because some people think of their pets as their children) and inquire about their kids (i.e. , in keeping with the above analogy with dogs/cats, these are "humans"), you may be confronted with one or both either getting very specific or correcting you for thinking they were older children by referring to one (or more) of their children as babies, infants, or by age, as in "my 16-month old", for example. With this, as with dogs and cats (puppies and kittens), the person is providing more specificity and also telling you that the child has a category that is more definitive (think more specific) than a non-definitive category. Also, it is indicating the child is not full grown, meaning not an adult. Yet they are still 'human'. No one would be using the term 'human' in reference this way, yet they still can classified as human. In other words, a human may be an infant, or a baby, or an adolescent, or an adult; yet once identified as one of those, it cannot at the same time (usually, although baby and infant sometimes overlap) be a person in the other category.

So 1) and 2) are analogies that include the younger/smaller version being identified by unique identifiers that tell about age or size. (If you want to distinguish one thing or another just by size, compare either of the words cottage or bungalow to the word house. Both cottages and bungalows are houses, but they are distinguished primarily by their size: they are small houses).

3) Now an analogy where calling something by a more general name is absolutely wrong: Say you see a wolf, and you say, hey, that is a pretty neat looking dog. But even though a wolf is in the general dog category (instead of being a cat or human), people generally don't go around naming that animal as a dog. They call it a wolf or a wolf pup (young). This distinguishes and more specifically identifies what this is.

So... the third is one where even if you call it in it's correct category, you are incorrect, and persisting to call it a dog basically persists in mis-identifying it.

Now for numismatics:

One of the better resources would by anything written by Ken Potter. He's basically IMO one of the go-to men for knowledge on coin errors/varieties. Here is a quote from one of his articles: (from http://www.numismaticnews.net/article/die_breaks_on_p_and_d_arizona_quarters) "Die chips are the same as die breaks except that they are smaller." This is as basic as it gets. Yet it does distinguish (if size is known) whether the die defect is called a die break or a die chip.

This quote, above, doesn't address what size the break on the die has to be and it doesn't go into all the nuances that go with broken dies and the state they are in, start at (as far as breaking), or the progression of the break. It simply identifies, much like a puppy is a small dog and a kitten is a small cat, that a small die break is a die chip if not something else (meaning, this identifies a small die break as a die chip, yet does not say that just because the die break is small it can't be something other than a die chip, like when it involves the edge it can then be a 'cud' rather than a die chip. Die chips are not cuds and cuds are not die chips, although they both refer to die breaks.

It also doesn't say what size that a die chip can be before it is no longer a die chip, but a die break (or major die break if you will). But other sites I have seen is that if the extruded metal from the break is a blob that is less than 1 sq mm in size, it is definitely a die chip, and if it is more than 4 sq mm in size, it is definitely not a die chip, but will be referred to as a die break. The size of it between 1 and 4 sq mm would be somewhat of a grey area, meaning there is some sizes of blobs that could be referred to either way, though many do use the approx. 4 sq. mm to fully distinguish it as not a die chip.

 

Very informative thank you.

 

I almost missed this extra rock ended up it was a die chip to the initials. Actually had another one I checked it to make sure.(Chip).

 

Found this nice little die crack.

 

I have a potato break.. Oops I mean potato chip