Faking CAC stickers now too?

Damn, it's crazy when you not only have to worry about counterfeit coins but now counterfeit slabs and CAC stickers, too.

I know it's not bullet-proof, but I have to remind myself to check the serial number and the CAC listing (if applicable) for any coins I buy going forward.

I hear PCGS is now using a state-of-the-art plastic slab that is virtually air-tight and also has chemical elements on the hologram and the slab that its machines can ID.

Can't these companies employ a spectrograph or whatever it's called to make sure that coins are the right metallic composition ? I would also think it's now possible to have super-HD scans of both sides of the coin to show the slightest detail and that would be an additional check against fraud.

When you hear these guys at PCGS, NGC, and CAC having to look at 300-500 coins a day, that's ridiculous. That averages out to 2 minutes TOPS and probably as little as 30-45 seconds on a busy day. That's too little time to look at a coin, grade it, give it a 2nd look, AND look for fraud. It's ridiculous. Sometimes I wonder if PCGS and NGC shouldn't buy out ANACS and ICG and consolidate the industry and make it more efficient.

I'd pay up for extra security.

I always wondered how much time they would spend on modern bullion vs. older coins <$100 vs. older coins $100 - $500 vs. Saints/Morgans/Caped Busts costing thousands vs. super-expensive coins costing tens or hundreds of thousands. Anybody have an idea ? No way they treat them all the same.

 

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The sticker was photoshopped on. He was just stealing images and photoshopping them on the ones I saw.

 

Yup, bobby at ccf gets bad listings taken down very quickly once brought to his attention. He even has a counterfit reporting section to vet fakes and if deemed counterfit his contact nukes the listing(s). Thought it might take a day being Sunday though but nope

 

What is "CCF" ??

 

I think you mean x-ray fluorescence? Anyway, the dividing line between what's possible and what gets done is usually cost. For a $28000 coin, if I were sending it in, I'd be ok with an extra couple hundred in fees to get more security, like you said. But, for an XF 1914-D, who's going to pay more than the typical $50 or so it takes to get the coin certified in the first place?

Also, aren't the new PCGS slabs only watertight? There's a big difference between watertightness and impermeability to gasses.

 

I believe watertight was what they were advertising. They are probably pretty close to airtight or at least have a slower exposure rate but I am not sure if you could ever make a plastic truly impermeable without adding linings or something along those lines.

 

Agreed, but I think the cost of modern technology can easily be spread over the few million coins they grade every few years. If they wanted to charge a sliding scale, I think most would agree to it.

OTOH, they could offer a Premium Service for more expensive coins that cost alot more $$$. You might not want it with common Walkers or Peace Dollars, but common Saints or more expensive Morgans, yeah.

I'm not an expert on these things. Quite honestly, we have no experience with coins in plastic for much more than 20 years or so. Who knows how they age in 30-50 years ?

Plus, the new slabs from PCGS are saying they will prevent toning. Oops !

 

That's not necessary.....would rather they spend more time on the coins during grading or more security precautions to prevent counterfeits.

Question....what prevents a slab from being opened/tampered with ? Is it sealed a certain way that makes it almost impossible to open it up and re-seal it ?

 

There are slabs older than 30 years now and you can find coins that have been in those original ones that long. Other coins have been in a slab basically that whole time but the slab has changed. We have a pretty good idea at this point of how they age and what slabs are more or less likely to induce toning from the labels ect.

If anyone has ever spilled something on a slab and gotten water in it I think they would appreciate that feature, but more importantly it is just an additional step showing the strength of the seal which is getting it closer to being airtight which is the ultimate goal. PCGS has changed their slab every year for sometime for that reason and NGC just redid their labels as well.

You can't open and reseal them.

 

Me, no.

But what about Chinese counterfeiters looking to spend less money than on a coin press or whatever to sell counterfeits ? Open up a legit coin...take it out....put in crap and sell that...re-grade the coin with another TPG review.

 

You in the general sense not you specifically. They cant be opened and have the coin be switched. That's internet paranoia when that possibility is thrown around. There hasn't actually been a documented case of that being successful.

 

This is not absolute. Perhaps with present day slabs, but have you ever heard of anyone cracking, as an example, an NGC slab, even from a few years past, and having it break at the seam? Now I'm certainly not saying resealing can be done perfectly and to the point where no one, upon close examination, would be the wiser, but as with how many don't pay particularly close attention to the third side of a coin, the same can be true for slabs. All things considered this shouldn't be a great concern, but it has happened. Then there's rattlers too...

 

Looks like the gang did a great job of busting up these sellers today! Good show, chaps....

 

If these slabs are somehow unopenable without destroying something that makes re-sealing them impossible, great. I knew the average Joe Schmoe coulnd't do it, but I'm glad to hear even professional couterfeiters find other ways of stealing easier.

Coin doctoring was another problem.... Laura Sperber was on that for a while. TPGs knew who was doctoring and sometimes didn't act.

 

That CAC sticker looks photoshopped..

 

I personally haven't heard of that but I guess it could be possible given the sheer number of slabs that get cracked for whatever reason pure luck could cause one to split there. Even if it did though to be able to get it all the way around just on the seem without destroying the insert would take considerable time and skill. The new PCGS I don't believe would even be possible with their over/under locking mechanism. They have a seem you can feel at the bottom then another visable seem under the surface inside.

The problem isn't so much can they be separated it is can you get it back together with no one noticing. Resealing an NGC one to match the feel of their edges would be near impossible. I'm not even sure where to start with trying to put a new PCGS one back together if you can manage to keep it from breaking getting it apart.

I've seen attempts at it get listed before where it was obvious from a mile away, but I've yet to see one that would even pass the eye test much less replicate the feel the edges should have.

Rattlers I've never actually cracked one so I am much less familiar with their seals. Then even if we say someone somehow managed to seceded the coin will need to pass the eye test too.

 

Is there a Basics or Primer on slab tampering somewhere on CT or the web ?

Don't know anything about the basics, seems, what to look or feel for, etc.

 

Coin swapping really isn't something you need to be concerned with to be completely honest.

 

Good to know....and as I buy fewer but more expensive coins I do alot of DD before buying.

The fraud involving recent American Eagles was disturbing. And I met one of the dealers who bought some fake silver bars mentioned in the Coin Week article.

 

+1 to this. You're far more likely to see a fake slab (with possibly a fake coin in it) than a genuine slab that's been tampered with.