Can Proof-like Coins still have Cartwheel Luster?

@iPen,

If no one tells you how a coin's luster comes about, I'll try again later. It is all in this thread. It seems you are getting close but still not entirely correct.

 

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That's because you know what you are talking about!
Now, I have a disagreement with you. If you were asked to say how much luster remains on this coin using words, which would you pick from the following (you must pick one)

1. full.
2. virtually all.
3. most.
4. some.
5. a little.
6. practically none.
7. none.

If you say 2 or 3 we'll agree that it is close to these. I'm closer to the 2.

@iPen needs to move the coin and take another photo with the coin upside down or put something under the edge of the coin to tilt it for the photo.

IMO the fields are very lustrous as the coin grades AU-55 at the least as far as the amount of wear on it.

 

The flash photography can be deceiving, but I see only minimal luster left around the relief features and the thin spaces between them. Not in the wide open fields.

By your number scale I would go with 4-5.

Just to be clear, we're talking about the Russian coin, not the Canadian one, right?

 

Yes, Russian. Then we'll need to let the OP decide. For now, will you at the least agree that there is very little rub on the coin? Forget the hairlines and color.

The flash photography can be deceiving (?) In what way. It is just like looking at the coin in a bright light and brings out the luster.

 

Yes, exactly. It's as if the planchet were made of very hard Silly Putty. You don't need to heat it up to strike a design on it with a modern coin press. (Flans of ancient coins were heated before striking, but that's because they were struck by hand... literally a guy with a hammer would strike the top die.)

Those peaks and valleys come about because the dies get worn. The first few strikes off a fresh die will always appear prooflike (likely with no visible die polishing lines, either) because the dies haven't worn enough to impart the type of flow lines that create cartwheel luster.

Forget about people arguing over whether the coin has cartwheel luster or not. The fact is, the sun rays on that coin are far, far too large to create a cartwheel luster effect. The surface irregularities that create luster are much smaller than that. That's why cleaning and dipping can take away the luster from a coin. They do so in different ways, but the fundamental reason it happens is because the surface of the coin is being disrupted. It's also why luster breaks can point to wear on the coin.

I wish I could find a really good video that shows a coin with luster. In the meantime, do what @Insider said and take a coin (preferably an uncirculated coin) and rotate it under a desk lamp in a relatively dark room. You should see the light reflect off the coin in a way that resembles two spokes of a wheel, and those spokes should rotate around the coin as you turn it under the light. That's luster.

 

Just to be clear to everyone, I know what cartwheel luster looks like to the naked eye lol.

I'm reading and rereading how cartwheel luster is made, and what it looks like at the microscopic level in terms of its physical form.

The rays on the Russian coin do in fact have a cartwheel luster effect. Whether or not that's because of the "peaks and valleys" of the rays and fields, or if the fields of that area were too far recessed for any damage to occur (thereby retaining original luster) may be way the cartwheel luster appears. Either way, cartwheel luster is only present in the area of the sun's rays.

The example of the rays is used to see if that would be analogous to the microscope level peaks and valleys of the coin.

Using a different example, here's a Rolex watch with what's called a "sunburst" dial. It also creates a cartwheel effect.

Pic from the 'net.

 

YES! Finally, short and sweet. Paul M. must be a grading seminar instructor.

 

NO! Forget the rays on your coin. There is practically full luster between them because any wear cannot get down to the surface between them until the coin gets lower in grade. The cartwheel will be all over your coin when you do as we say. Now please do it (or did you just post a photo w/o having the coin in your possession?)

Somewhere on the Internet (Utube?) someone will have a video of a coin showing a cartwheel reflection.

 

I used the rays as a macroscopic view example of the coin's microscopic level.

The Rolex dial example is better. But the cartwheel luster effect is still shown on the rays, which I originally thought was due to the physical pattern of the rays as opposed to the original luster remaining between the rays.

Otherwise, the 1924 Rouble has very little cartwheel luster.

 

The actual rays on your coin ARE what a cross section looks like but they are a poor example of cartwheel. The rays on the coin "represent" the die radials of a struck coin. That's what gives the coin its cartwheel.

LUSTER, DIE WEAR, AND RADIALS IS AN EXTREMELY SIMPLE THING TO GRASP IN A CLASSROOM W/A BLACKBOARD. If we can get you to explain their relationship BACK TO US, you will know more than many posters here who are considered by many to be experts.

 

Do you have the actual coin in hand? I don't believe there is no cartwheel in view of all the mint luster on the coin BUT I'll take your word for it.

 

Yes, I have it in hand. I had to edit the last post - there's some cartwheel luster on the coin overall, more so on the reverse of the coin than on the obverse, as less wear on the reverse is usually the case on older coins from my experience.

The sun's rays area has an immense amount of cartwheel luster.

 

This is getting just silly. Look at the actual Russian coin. Click on the photo, put your face a few inches from the screen and just look. There are clear rub marks in the fields. You can see the contrast between original luster areas, like the enclosed spaces between the dudes legs and the arm and body of the dude on the left, and the rest.
The mere fact of the rub marks and difference in surface appearance is pretty clear evidence of the coin having been wiped clean.

 

Not a grading instructor, but I have been a teacher.

@iPen: The watch face is a better model for cartwheel luster than the sun rays. If your coin has little to no luster other than near the rays, it's likely it's been cleaned and/or has some wear on it. I'm not familiar with Russian coins, but that coin looks like it could grade around AU-50, so I'd expect it to have luster in protected areas only. The rays themselves are unlikely to create a luster-like effect, unless they're shaped like the segments of the watch face.

 

Why is it that most of the proof mercury dimes I've looked at seem to have similar cartwheel luster as a high grade business strike? Where as most other proof coins have mirror like fields without the same cartwheel effect.

 

It sure is . No one except you is talking about any cleaning. Soon I'll be reading that it is HARSH Cleaning from all the experts here.

I'm curious how you would grade this coin with virtually its ENTIRE DESIGN DETAIL COMPLETE?

 

Probably looks that way because of the dished field on the dimes.

 

Just a question, how many coins of this type have you examined in hand?

Cleaning the coins "with the silver" was a common practice in Soviet Russia, and this coin fits the bill for being a victim of that unfortunate mentality.

 

Note: another poster who refuses to answer my simple question - grade? Yet, keeps questioning me. Don't know why I should expect anything different here.

Now that is a very valid and excellent question. All opinions should be verified like this!

Answer: Depends on time frame. I should guess nearly 175 in my lifetime (4 so far this year - two at FUN Show in January). One of the four was a struck counterfeit. So lets just say I've examined at the least 150 of these coins under a stereo microscope in all grades as a professional. Most AU and up + several as low as VF. I have never seen a well worn piece. A few have been struck counterfeits.

Incidentally, cleaning silver coins has gone on since ancient times, Soviet Russia is no exception. IMO, this is a very lightly circulated coin with nothing unusual to indicate unacceptable cleaning. Just about any lightly circulated coin has random hairlines. IMO, this coin is a borderline straight/details specimen.

Care to tell me how you would grade the coin yet?

 

Grade wise, based on just the one picture, I would say low end MS details. But, with the glare it's tricky to judge some of the higher points, which is why I prefer to only attest to the stuff I can see clearly. I'm really surprised you are not seeing that this coin has been rubbed down at some point.