1921 Peace Dollar grading

Please don't be defensive. What part of "vague" do you see in 2 direct questions?

You have more experience than Tps. You do not believe the marks on the dollar were on the coin when it left the Mint. I'm telling you ...Opps...IMHO they were. I'm trying to get Tps. to figure how it can happen by asking 2 questions. ANYONE on CT is free to chime in. I figured I could win you over if you thought about it thru the 2 questions. I could have explained EVERYTHING in the photo a week ago BUT it's better when someone arrives at the answer on their own with a few hints.

Let's make it REALLY SIMPLE! Forget the coin. If I carve my initials in a planchet and let someone strike it what are the THREE possible ways the struck coin will look and WHY? This is Numismatic Basics-101, and IMO members who can tell the three possible "looks" will be WAY ahead of members who cannot. It is that simple. No tests, just free education/discussion

I'm leaving work to go to a picture post card show. I'll be back after 7 PM.

 

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All I want is an explanation of how a planchet striation can survive a strike - and a clash - not only undamaged but at its' strongest at the point deepest and furthest away from the original planchet surface, the metal which had to move the greatest z-axis distance (in near-liquid form) to reach its' final resting place. That is a point so fundamentally obvious that ancillary subjects need to wait, because the answer to that question bears directly on everything else.

You prove to me that planchet striations can be that deep on the highest points of a struck coin, and we'll go from there. Back up your talk. Give me evidence.

 

You have a photo of a coin that can answer everything you ask. I'll post the answer next week and you can take it or leave it.

I'm very disappointed. Just like several other long-time/important members on CT that should be educating collectors in search of INFORMED/CORRECT information, a bunch of you insist on writing posts yet you NEVER ANSWER A SIMPLE QUESTION. IMO, it's so sad for numismatics.

Ok, your stream goes higher up the wall than mine so will you please share your thoughts about my questions?

BYE, I'm missing my show!

 

Your "simple questions" are pure obfuscation to the informed numismatist.

I should be thankful for that - your BS and FUD are offering me the perfect opportunity to teach fact with your examples of not-fact for contrast. Keep up the good work.

 

These faces are great! NOTE: A very experienced dealer cannot/will not answer two simple questions about the minting process. Is it any wonder that our hobby/business needs true Professionals at TPGS to keep things straight.

PLEASE stop this psudo-scientific z-axis BS . It's no wonder that people here think that a person with a VERY BASIC understanding of the way coins are made and the characteristics seen on coins is considered to be a know-it-all!

I am spending all this time to help tpsadler in a private conversation. I'll invite you to join in also (if you wish) so you can refute what I tell him. If you string along, I'll go one step at a time in the process. That is one of my teaching methods . Then we can proceed to (each) next step when you are in agreement .

PS Thanks for all YOUR questions . Really. I have found that a person who cannot explain a concept or answer a student's questions DOES NOT KNOW THE TOPIC. I hope we can agree on that - for a start

 

1. They will disappear because the coin was fully struck and the metal under heat and pressure was soft and hot enough to fill the die completely.

2. They will appear indented (incused I believe is the term) in the coin because the strike was not complete enough to push the metal into the die, and no metal pushed in around it. They will be faint because of the metal getting pushed around - but not completely gone.

3. They could possibly appear as cud, die crack/error or something to that effect because the strike was strong enough to move the metal, but the metal was folded over on itself at some point and folded into the cuts unevenly. Although the strike was strong - it will appear as a weakly struck coin due to the movement of the metal under pressure and the buildup of the metal in the cuts preventing the die from moving farther.

1 and 2 I am pretty confident on. 3 - I am guessing based on my common sense knowledge of physics.

And I'm just putting out an educated guess - and looking forward to hearing the real answer.

(And watching the fireworks and eating popcorn!)

 

I certainly shall...Any one here that wants to see an example of a truly informed "ex"-"pert" numismatist should read the opinions on the thread: Your thoughts on 1908 IHC?

Anyway, thanks for playing nicer than me. This is more fun than playing w/my newps from the post card show.

I'm just an ignorant old "fuddy-duddy" so please keep it simple:

What is my FUD? Learned another new word too: YOU are the only one obfuscating here. Please answer my question: What are the three results (WHAT DOES THE FINISHED COIN LOOK LIKE) that can happen when a planchet with deep scratches is struck at the mint? As soon as you do we can BOTH educate the inquiring minds.

 

Thank you, thank you Brett. You saved me a lot of typing and grief
How did you learn more than an experienced old dealer at such a young age? Summer Seminars or are you just a smart, informed, bookworm?

Now, I'll fill in the rest of the story:

My photo in #87 shows a gold dollar with a typical (but strong) die clash. The die clash HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE STRIATIONS ON THE COIN THAT WERE ON THE PLANCHET WHEN IT WAS STRUCK. Once the dies are clashed, unless the clash is polished out (or gets weaker over the life of the die) they will appear on coins struck from that die NO MATTER WHAT "RELICS" (such as scratches) WERE ON THE PLANCHET.

Now that the die clash is explained, let's move on to the striations on the coin. They appear on the posted coin in TWO WAYS:

1. The ones in the field are almost gone See Brett's answer in scenario #2.

2. The ones on the relief (wreath area) are still strong. The reason is a VERY SIMPLE concept. A die has a flat area and incuse area. The flat part of the die came into contact with the planchet stria (on the planchet) and made them less noticeable (partly struck out). The recessed part of the die (that makes the raised design) DID NOT COME INTO CONTACT (WITH ANYTHING) with the planchet stria so they remained (sunken in as the were on the original planchet) on the finished coin. The metal flow and pressure of the die did not force enough of the original planchet (with the stria) into the die to obliterate those marks.

Score: Brett 2 1/8 and the winner! Zero for the looser. LOL...this was a test

Phew, glad this is over. Tpslader, any questions?

 

I'm just a smart informed nerd. I pictured in my head what happened when your initials were carved in, and what the metal would do as it heated up, and had extreme pressure put upon it.

"Be The Ball"

 

PS The b-axis is connected to the length of the down/up position of the flowing thing-of-ma-gig making the z-terminal in line with the circumference of the ratio of rim modulation. The gold coin is PMD and I can prove it! and

 

Yeah, you really deserved a 2 1/4 but I'm a crusty old fart

 

You forgot to carry pi, calculate for variance at sea level and conjugate your verb.

If you had done all that, you'd see that the 1921 Peace Dollar in question was already graded by a professional - and no initials carved into it.

 

Somehow this thread got way off the subject...think it was my fault when I told a poster a coin was not harshly cleaned. Anyway, I've been writing about mint-made imperfections and being sarcastic so much that I forgot all about the Peace dollars! Best of luck in your numismatic studies!

 

Beautiful Peace Dollar, Brett_in_Sacto!

 

thinking at moment

 

Have had the opportunity to review this thread and the original request for thought about the 1921 Peace Dollar I have come to these concussions. The appreciation the TPG is good reference as they see hundred if not thousands of similar coins (Experience is King). I have been a dealer for over ten years, a collector since 10 and have had the pleasure to have seen hundreds of these coins (But I too consider myself as a Beginner with Interest in the Hobby). That cannot replace the numbers seen by TPG companies. But as a reseller I can only give my educated opinion as I stand behind those to given to my customer. I offer a full refund if the buyer should find opinion to be unfair or unjust therefore I have a distinct reason for my Opinion.
That being said I will further justify my opinion on that 1921 Peace Dollar. Not the 1857 One Dollar Gold piece @Insider displayed as I think those show little similarity but do have highlighted important concepts and terms.
The 1921 IMO does not show Striations unless @Insider is referring to the area about the Ear on the Obverse, this is the high point of the relief and I also agree this would be a flat part with little or no detail showing.. I also am of the opinion Scratches prior to the Strike would most generally be obviated by the Strike. I have to agree, my knowledge of what happens during Minting (Strike) to the Striations is a little lacking and from the reference in this Thread of "The Art and Science of Grading Coins" and discussion in this Thread has moved my level of striations and the minting understanding from Immediate to Advanced Immediate (Thanks). Circulated coins will have Scratches, Rubs, and a general a multitude of different types of damage (History). This coin in IMO has obvious been Cleaned, likely due to someone attempting to improve the Shine by removing the grit. Those are seen by the circular marks over the entire Obverse and some of the Reverse.
My particular concern is the eye appeal of this coin and there are many of 1921 Peace Dollars in AU that do not show these marks. IMO if you are spending your hard earned money do not spend too much therefore my grade as AU(Cleaned), which by most standards indicate XF pricing at most. The adjective of Harshly Cleaned is just the Adjective I would use as I think this have been intentionally done with little concern of the history of this coin. Cleaned would imply to me as some had soaked this coin in some form of detergent and lightly cleaned removing some or most the coin's life or character but not rubbing. (That's my Opinion and am sure some will disagree.)
I do not mean with this with any disrespect but after reviewing @Insider Posts and do appreciate his time. I could not say there were any Lights Going Off or Ahh Moments this is just a difference of opinions. Purchasing this coin will have little I do not the technical details of how or why these Scratches or Striations appeared and do with the Collector's definition of Eye Appeal and how it will fit their need. Correct Key Attributes are extremely useful when buying via photos or Site Unseen. Therefore I do see @Insider''s point.
Two of the most important categories most collectors will identify can be simply defined in terms of ownership "Yours and Mine" . I highly recommend the book "The Art and Science of Grading Coins" Get the book not the Kindle version as the photos are too hard to see. IMO Peace Dollars are one of the hardest to grade little alone the High Relief 1921 and 1922.

 

tpsadler: thank you for sharing your comprehensive thoughts. Very helpful.

 

Some further understanding about how lines on planchets may be preserved during striking can be gained by reading Dan Carr's posts of an experiment he did with simulated die hubbing.
http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=9098304&fpart=3

 

You don't understand much about metal flow, do you?