1921 Peace Dollar grading

I find this date to be the hardest to grade in MS because of the weak strike.

IMO, the OP's coin in both his pictures posts shows cleaning hairlines. I'm also in the AU details camp.

Here's a picture of a cleaned '21 I bought on purpose. I also own a '21 in MS64. This coins shows far less cleaning lines that the OP's coin. In hand, you can barely see the lines, but they are there. When I bought the MS64, I had looked for a while for a coin with a "more complete" strike. I have to speak in relative terms, because I haven't really seen a '21 with a complete strike of the hair over the ear.




This one exhibits some nice luster in hand. Not enough for a 65, but certainly enough for it's grade.

 

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I appreciate your input but to us novice collectors working with the opinion, this is how it use to be done is poor at best.
How can anyone pay a premium for CAC Stickers and a published definition that is sometimes correct?
I know as well as anyone this is profession based upon human nature. So ones idea of what the a grade could be will be varied based on numerous personal factors. That is why when one choses a Grading Service like PCGS or NGC with CAC Approvals we expect more than one person's opinion just let the collectors know the real expectations.

 

You just have to understand the difference between the technical grade and market grading based on condition rarities. Would you consider it fair to send in the finest example of a coin just to get the technical grade when others of the same grade would be of inferior quality? I'm betting the answer would be a resounding no there. Well it's the same for everyone else including the graders. Just because a coin doesn't quite reach the technical grade, it doesn't mean that coin can't be assigned a higher grade. This is market grading at its finest. Basically the grading companies assign the coin a value more than giving it a true technical grade. I'm not a big fan of this practice, but it is what it is. Fortunately us regular folks don't need to worry so much about this because we wouldn't pay crazy money for a 1/0 coin just for bragging rights. This is more of an investor market sort of coin. Do you really think that there are technical MS-69 early copper coins from the late 1700s? Probably not, but a few exist because they are finer than the nicest MS-68. When it comes to CAC (or any other sticker service for that matter), and though I have a ton of respect for JA, does little for me. I have several coins with CAC stickers, but it was usually just icing on the cake, it didn't influence my decision to buy it one way or another.

 

Thanks for my morning laugh...Have a question/statement. Since you believe it does not make a difference if it is cleaned ONCE A COIN IS NOT UNC, would you rather pay the same PRICE for a cleaned AU as a cleaned VF? Also there are degrees of cleaning that the grading services do not recognize. You will be just as likely to receive an improperly cleaned coin (too many parallel hairlines to be "market acceptable") or a BUFFED coin in a slab that is "Detailed" as CLEANED. Collectors should learn to tell the difference.

 

Don't you get it? THERE ARE NO STANDARDS IN NUMISMATICS that are followed 100% of the time AND the "No Standards in use at one time CHANGE/ have changed in the past and will continue to change in the future.

All kinds of standards are published or are on the TPGS websites. Everything is a GUIDE. It is YOUR job to read them and examine thousands of graded coins to develop Your Personal Standards. My personal standards do not comply with the TPGS but I can tell you what the grade on the four major TPGS label will be on 90% + of the slabs examine. I am in agreement with NGC, PCGS, and ICG 98% of the time (unless they missed something like a repair or rim file). When I miss it is usually a ANACS item.

There is wiggle room for so many factors in TPGS standards that I don't wish to start writing about. Some of the members here are more qualified than I am and may have the time to explain.

 

Your grade is fine BUT IMO, you need to learn what the majority of dealers/collectors/TPGS's consider to be "HARSHLY" cleaned. IMHO, with few exceptions, many of the posters on CT have no clue!

 

Speaking of standards: https://xkcd.com/927/

 

I think the coin in the OP has enough wear and loss of luster to grade EF40-45. It also looks cleaned to me. This could change if I could see it in hand, of course.

 

Rather comment on someone's explanation of Harshly Cleaned as you feel mine was incorrect, please enlighten us the other majority of what "the majority of dealers/collectors/TPGS's consider to be "HARSHLY" cleaned." after all that is why we spend our time here. Let us all in on such things.

 

Here's some Peace knowledge dropped. This is the wife of the designer of the Peace dollar who was his model for the design...

(From "The Comprehensive Catalog and Encyclopedia of Morgan and Peace dollars" which I highly recommend if you don't own one already)

 

I think we all have a very good idea of what harshly cleaned looks like. When a coin has swirl marks, hairlines, pitting, and gouges, it is harshly cleaned. When it has a dull, flat, lusterless surface, it is harshly cleaned. When the metal has been damaged with an object, palm, buffer, or anything else that can cause damage, it is harshly cleaned. We all know the signs of a cleaned coin---no need to educate us.

 

I'll take you up on that: however, it will take a LONG TIME to cover all the bases when you are not looking at actual coins. I don't have time right now...I'm looking at coins. I PROMISE to write something by Monday. Nevertheless, there are several KNOWLEDGEABLE members on CT that must be retired who can fill you in faster.

I'll try to give some food for thought (as I am eating lunch).

 

Funny thing about collecting, for the serious the voyage is a must and most not at the same time. As seasoned collectors to the youngsters, questions will arise. Let none of us overlook the seemingly obvious to some, only to find truly the need for information to further our voyage.
This thread started out as a question looking for understanding of a High Relief 1921 Peace Dollar. Hopefully the OP found this info good.
I joined this forum in search of information to help me and to help others. It is my attempt to not talk around or over others and remember everyday we all the same, we all put our pants on one leg at a time.

 

OK Guys, I joined CT to learn things and so far I have been very pleased with the give and take, jokes, and new knowledge gained here. Many of the posters on CT should be teaching grading classes as they "get it" and can explain both sides of a coin's grade: My personal AU-58, old cleaning under the natural gray surface but a coin I should sell all day as a "Commercial" MS-63 due to great eye appeal and my interpretation of how the TPGS would grade it based on the coins I have bought/sold/examined. Please Remember that I DO NOT WISH TO COME OFF AS A KNOW IT ALL; however, I DO blast false and misleading info I see and in the future it will always be my opinion and I will print that as in: IMO, absolute nonsense!

Sorry Morgandude11, I disagree. IMO:Your post is EXACTLY what I referred to when I said: "Have no clue!"

Now, Let's take a vote from the posters here. It is going to take a long time to explain IMO the differences between cleaning as I have observed in the past. Before I take the time, let's have a vote. One poster says "educate us" one says "don't bother."

 

I forgot to mention GREAT Answer Morgandude11 some of the other majority know have a better understanding thanks.

 

We don't need a vote, just give us you thoughts .. Just your opinion

 

I don't need to vote--I have another name for my ignore list..lol Mr. Insider is now my outsider.

 

Just for starts until a few days from now...IMO

So...until later, what do you all think about that? Any likes

 

This is GREAT Morgan Dude, I really enjoy the humor on CT between the long-time members who know each other. I ignored one poster so far for putting "like" on all my posts.

When I ignore someone, does it mean they cannot read my posts, contact me, or I cannot read their posts?

Hope you either get this or (since I'm now ignored) someone can answer my questions please.

 

It means they don't see your posts. I don't know about PMs.