NYTimes "broken laws" allow ISIS to Profit From Looted Antiquities

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/10/w...column-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news

Interesting article once again highlighting a problem area in collecting....Middle East art. I discussed this topic with someone of import at Triton. Tricky subject. The article mentions coins as well as other artifacts. I know several of my coins are recent discoveries and are from the region. I have no idea if they are sourced "ethically" or not. I trust they are. I was told they were.

I also know I have seen a couple coins from the Qunduz hoard sold at auction (those coins were in a museum in Afghanistan that was ransacked.) Those Qunduz coins were obviously not sourced legally. I have the reference copy of the hoard and the auctioned coins were certainly from that stolen group. I know of someone who purchased one, knowing it was from that stolen hoard. His view was he was keeping it safe for history. The money had passed hands to the initial source years earlier and his buying it (for 2,000 Euros) would not enrich a terrorist.

ISIS and their ilk obviously get the majority of their cash from oil and other means with antiquities being a small percentage. Does buying questionable material contribute to the pillaging or does it save the objects that would otherwise be destroyed. Or is that a self serving rationalization. How does one separate what was once "legitimate" trade from the trade that constitutes blood money?

Anyway, food for thought. It vexes my mind regularly.

 

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It is definitely a sticky issue. Thanks for the link.

 

Interesting article. These quotes from the article especially caught my attention:

“There appears to be an interesting geographic divide: Pre-Islamic objects go to Europe and North America, while Islamic art goes to countries of the gulf,” said Markus Hilgert, director of the Museum of the Ancient Near East in Berlin, who is coordinating a research project on the illicit trade.

Since 2011, the authorities in Turkey have seized 6,800 objects, a majority of them coins, and are holding them in regional museums until their origins can be determined, according to Necati Anaz, the deputy manager of the International Center for Terrorism and Transnational Crime in Ankara. Dr. Anaz said the challenge was that many of the smallest objects could easily be carried in bags or in clothes.

Wow. It might be only my imagination, but I've seen many high-quality Parthian coins on the market these days. Most probably not related, but one can only wonder.

This quote from the article kinda gives me the chills :

The authors of a recent report by the Washington-based Foundation for Defense of Democracies observed of customers in the West, “The main buyers are, ironically, history enthusiasts and art aficionados in the United States and Europe — representatives of the Western societies which I.S. has pledged to destroy.”

Having met several people whose lives have been directly traumatized by the recent ISIS-inspired attacks in San Bernardino, this article certainly gives me pause.


guy

 

Broken whose law? Illegal to whom?
these are state equivalent entities we're talking about. Even definitions like "terrorists" mean nothing when they are clearly outside of the jurisdiction of any legal system.

When a state/government gets overthrown, who becomes legal owner of its assets? Were these kings queens and nobles installed by british and french in these "countries" legal owners of those items at the first place? Get real!

Anyway, are these topics really suited for discussions here?

 

Why would this topic not be suited for discussion here? That was quite a foot stomping post. I don't even know where to start to address your points. Your view seems to be that nobody owns anything, governments have no rights, and discussion is dangerous?

I will leave it at that until you can give me insight into your outrage.

 

We're not all from the same country or the same side of the conflict. While you and me would consider someone a terrorist or looter, he's a revolutionary or justice fighter to some others. I just don't know whether it's appropriate to do something (presenting one's political view for example) entirely unrelated to the reason we come to this forum.

Before J.P Morgan had a focus, he basically spent first half of his life "robbing europeans of their historical artifacts". When his dad asked him whether this was what he wanted to do with rest of his life and all his wealth, he said yes...
Looting, or the general accumulation of wealth from aboard through means that aren't morally acceptable is really part of european culture, and our society had long came to accepte it.

 

Yes, I see. ISIS are freedom fighters and they are only acting as JP Morgan did. They are capitalists modelling the ways of pillaging Europeans through the centuries. Wantonly tearing down ancient ruins and cutting them up and shipping them off as Lord Elgin once did. Or secretly carting away the plunders of Troy and melting them like Schliemann. Reaping the rewards of their plunder. Yes I see the similarities. Not worth discussing.

Got it. Thanks.

 

your reaction pretty much proved my point.

 

While ISIS is certainly making some money off of antiquities I think there are a few other things that should be taken into account if we are to have a real discussion on this issue:

• ISIS is making significantly more money on oil than they could ever dream of making on antiquities
• Looting was happening in this region on a large scale well before ISIS moved into the area. ISIS simply took advantage of the existing situation.
• (Continuing from point 3) I'd wager that a large portion of the looted material is not benefiting ISIS at all, but simply citizens taking advantage of the instability. You can find satellite images online of heavily looted sites and some of them have been under control of the Assad regime the entire time.

I certainly think we need to do our part to avoid recently looted artifacts by buying provenanced coins when possible and asking dealers about provenance but we should not assume that every seemingly recent find from the region is funding ISIS(nor should we assume that clean, untoned surfaces equates to a recent find).

 

Actually your first post proves your point. I was simply clarifying that I understood your point. You have now doubly clarified.

 

The CoinTalk rules forbid political discussion and this thread could easily become political. It's probably wise to tread carefully here otherwise the thread could become locked.

 

I agree completely which is why raised the question of HOW one does their part.

 

Anytime cultural patrimony is discussed, there is a political nature to it inherently. You can't speak of any countrys' laws, without politics being involved.

What you are suggesting is that none of this is an allowable topic. If that is the case, then this is really a "Look at my pretty coin" and "Help me identify this coin" forum.

If that is the case, I would like the moderator to jump in now. I have better ways to spend my time. You cant be a responsible collector if you can't discuss the real world implications.

I am pretty sure my opening post was not political. If I am expected to let someone paint it otherwise because they want to be provocatively avant-garde, well, that I will not do.

ISIS destroying Palmyira is the same as JP Morgan buying out Europe???? To me, that is turning the discussion into political farce.

 

According to the rules, whether a subject is "political " enough to close or remove is up to the moderators opinion as it is very subjective. If the thread appears to indicate that this is the intention of the originator or if it becomes the intent of a group of posters, it will be. If it is just one post/person trying to make it so then editing is the primary tool. However, moderators can't monitor each thread, so it is up to the members to report such threads. We try very hard not to close or edit threads, nor have to consider removing members. Thanks , Jim

 

How is the implication of that compared to taking egyptian obelisks for trophies and let them decay away in acid rain? Sure that was 100 years ago, what about taking it as a joke when egyptian government asked for return of their national treasure?

All isis did was selling off what's left of the city timur had already destroyed a millennium ago.

 

I am all for collectors owning ancient coins/art/antiques. They're going to take care, study, and protect the artifact. Much better than being stuffed away in the back room of some museum, never to be appreciated.

 

This topic is a hard one due to many factors including politics, religion, ignorance, supposition, etc. ISIS is not currently or factually known to have engaged in any kind of looting. However, in the regions they control they collect taxes from anyone and everyone. This includes looters. So, in a peripheral way, they are complicit and an accomplice to looting, but that could certainly be debated by a lawyer, I imagine. I do find it funny though, I have seen the TV interviews with those who claim to be offering antiquities for sale from the region. From what I could see (and from photos on the news sites), they are all fake. Who's laughing now? All the way to the bank. While the west enrages themselves, scammers are making a tidy profit, likely none of it (or little) going to the terrorists themselves. Let's facing it. ISIS makes obscene profits on oil. Why bother with antiquities? They dont. They blow them up instead.

 

I don't portend to be an expert in middle eastern politics and foreign affairs, but I do not believe this is correct.

 

It's not your imagination. However, the reason is innocent enough. There is a very large collection (one of the finest assembled) currently on the market. Some sold last year, others offered in Europe this year. I know the collector personally. He has always had an eye for rarity and quality.

 

Unfortunately this article only uses supposition, ignorance and theory as its basis (as most articles on the subject do). I've dealt in antiquities as well as coins for nearly 30 years and know the market fairly well (certainly much better than any author or newscaster). There simply isnt much material on the market from that region that is new. If the markets are flooding with illicit material, where is it? Nobody in the business I know of has seen any of it. When pushed on this fact, the reporting community came up with a new theory: It's not going to the west, but now the east. India, Pakistan, China, Japan, etc. Unfortunately nobody can verify that idea either.

International laws are getting much tighter for antiquities, and as a result we have seen a huge decrease in the sales of such items. Less looted material is on the market, and for those who already own them, they are holding them instead of selling for fear they will be confiscated if they dont have an airtight provenance.

Like I said, it's a complex topic, but not unlike religion. If you believe you dont need proof. If you dont believe and have proof or ask for it, your questions will fall on deaf ears (now having written that I fear I may offend anyone of any religious conviction. That's not my intent, but I'll leave the comment there).