Cabinet Friction,stacking Or Wear

This is why the coin hobby did not exist before about 2007.

Use of the term cabinet wear or cabinet friction was used as an excuse for chargeing uncirculated money for coins with slight wear on the high points at least back to the early 20th century. (100 years before the coin hobby even existed! See first comment.)

 

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Doug,

Everything that reflects light has luster. The luster from plastic is different than that from metal. Metal luster is different for each type of metal, surface finish, type and intensity of the light, ya, ya ya...Read between the line so these threads are shorter.

The reflection of any coin - even black ones is luster. We are talking about the same thing. LUSTER is LUSTER*. The reflection of light off a newly minted coin, proof coin, and a matte coin struck with a new die is different in appearance. Yes, we can say a coin is DMPL but it has a different luster than a frosty cartwheel. And yes, planchet metal moved across the face of the die... I think you will agree with all of this. Now I shall read the rest of your post.

*Just as WEAR is WEAR but it can look different due to how it occurred.

 

Dear Doug, I am 100% in agreement with you except for one statement below. ALL COINS have luster. It has nothing to do with the dies. I can hit a planchet with a hammer and it still has luster - just not the same as the surface of the planchet I missed with the hammer. Is that what the PCGS seminar concluded to prove you are correct?

Die erosion is what causes the raised lines on coins that reflect light in a cartwheel pattern. We are saying the same thing. As you said, as the dies become worn the luster changes. ALL struck coins have luster. Proofs have a nice mirror-like luster (I prefer frosty white mint luster).

My disagreement is this: Everyone, and I mean everyone...Mint engravers, mint press operators, mint floor foremen, well-known numismatic authorities on the minting process will tell you that the cartwheel effect we all like to see on our coins is caused by die erosion. The die wear does not create the luster (it is already on the metal planchet) it enhances and changes the luster.

Don't you agree?

 

Thank you for asking. This is like the fundamentals, Tube, that everybody, in all the excitement, just kind of forgets about. Start, here. Pick a hobby. What's the cream of the crop? It's the best preserved specimen, i.e., baseball card, stamp, comic book, pocket watch, whatever it is. What's grading? Grading is how well-preserved the specimen, i.e., baseball card, stamp, comic book, pocket watch, whatever it is, is. What's wear? It's how compromised that state of preservation is. Condition. That's where grading is at. Except, in coins. In coins, the market, not condition, is where grading is at.

Thus (...let me just keep going, as long as I'm hot), an AU58 with wear is an MS64 if some "expert" calls that wear "cabinet friction." What about an MS64 without cabinet friction? What do we do with that one? Do we mean it's worth the same as the MS64 with cabinet friction? I think if I had the choice, I want the MS64 without cabinet friction, don't you?

Take it even further, it gets even the more absurd. The MS64 has a degree of cabinet friction equal to the wear on an AU58. What if it has a higher degree of cabinet friction? What if it has a degree of cabinet friction equal to the wear on an EF45? What if it has an even higher degree than that? Again, I want the MS64, not the MS64 with the EF45 degree of cabinet friction, thank you very much.

They're twisted into a pretzel, do you want to know the truth? Grade your coins based on condition, i.e., state of preservation, from the time they left the Mint. You'll always have a winner. I'm not trying to be cute. It's really that simple. Don't get drawn into these crazy market rationalizations. Wear is wear, from wherever, it doesn't matter. Let the "experts" have their little game. Most of them probably don't have any better way of earning a living, anyway.

 

Eddiespin, I just learned how to upload photos and how to post a new thread too. I put it on World Coins Section in case I messed up...LOL.

I'll get some examples of stacking, etc. to you before the FUN show. Next, I want to add a photo like everyone else. Just noticed I now have a Male symbol rather than a question mark because I updated my bio.

 

This is really good stuff!! Keep it coming!

 

Dude, this is cringe-worthy. The fresher the die, the smoother the cartwheel effect. When you have a worn die there are tiny stops and gaps that make the cartwheel effect look, well, pixelated is the best word I can use to describe it.

 

I don't need to, you got it. But, I will, lol. I'll just add this. Supposing I carried around my MS64 in my pocket, everywhere I went, as a sort of good luck piece. After years, it's going to incur wear. It's not circulation wear, because I never spent it, it never circulated, it just stayed in my pocket. Is it still MS64? I believe I can say, we both agree, no way on God's Green Earth is it still MS64. So, instead of that, I put it in a cabinet, or otherwise store it in a way in which, over time, it incurs wear. Same darn thing, so what are we talking about in this thread? We're talking about playing head games with wear. Store the MS coin right, and it won't incur wear. There's our bottom-line.

 

Sorry, I must be having trouble with my English! Yes, yes, yes that's what I said. Only the cartwheel is not the same as from a worn die.

 

Luster is Luster. I don't need a dictionary but thanks. I was taught what the NUMBER ONE entry in a dictionary means.

Is there luster from a piece of plastic? Of course there is. Before you can teach a beginner what Mint Luster is on a coin he needs to understand the concept - reflected light from a surface.

Almost everything in numismatics is a matter of degree: Luster, wear, cleaning, strike... need more?

Once a Newbie learns what Mint Luster is, he will be able to recognize it in the protected recesses of an XF coin (and for you and I Doug - the old VF's!).

I think we all agree that an original Unc has some kind of mint luster. The only thing a collector needs to know is what it looks like.

Regards

 

Hang in there TubeRider...You are getting a graduate degree education from these posts!

 

Yes I Am!!! I just wish I was in a room with all of you and coins
were flying back and forth as fast as the information!

 

What state do you live in? There may be a seminar coming to your area.

 

California, San Diego area. I attended the first PCGS Grading 101 at Long Beach a few years ago, pretty basic with zero hands on. I also attended the ANA Summer Seminar in Colorado, Grading U.S Coins Part 1. Planning on Part 2 this summer.

 

Oh, you are in. After Part 2, you will know more about grading than most of the dealers at shows...LOL. Take the advanced class later and you'll be "fighting" with the best of them here. Cannot beat hands-on so look at slabs at the shows and remember to purchase something if you spend some time at a table. I don't get to CA much anymore. Long Beach was once one of the best shows in the country. You could find anything there - cigar labels, stamps, post cards, meteorites...

Buy Grading Coins by Photographs and read the intro before your class this summer. Read Numismatic News and Coin World...some good columns on grading/authentication.

 

As you say, wear is wear since it's all about condition and the source of the wear is irrelevant. Ok so carrying this out further, why does it matter what caused the reduction in the state of preservation? Why is wear singled out over say, a bag mark? Both are essentially damage to the coin that reduces the state of preservation.

But we do arbitrarily differentiate between these, we have to, due to the limitation of the Sheldon scale itself, since it is essentially two grading scales; one for circulated (1-58) and one for uncirculated (60-70). If we got rid of the range descriptions for "almost uncirculated" and "uncirculated" and simply had a continuum from 1-70 where the coins were graded based on their state of preservation, we wouldn't have these issues where certain types of wear have to be called cabinet friction etc.. After all, an AU58 that is really an MS64 with just a slight touch of wear is in a better state of preservation than a baggy MS62, yet the grade is lower. That simply doesn't work, and market grading is an acknowledgement of this.

 

"Buy Grading Coins by Photographs"

I'll add it to the list. Birthday/Christmas next week. To add to my library my wife purchased 5 or 6 grading and counterfeit detection books that were on my list. I receive Coin World and The Numismatist. I'll add Numismatic News too.

 

Jaelus,

I just found out this week that a numismatist we all know (100% name recognition) and respect due to his contributions to the hobby describes grading in a simple way I never thought of:

Coins actually have two grades and we are all trying to boil it down to one! Coins have a WEAR grade and a VALUE grade. That's why there is so much disagreement. That's why there are AU coins graded MS-64, and MS-62 coins graded AU. For example: If you don't know that an 1884-S Morgan goes from $225 in AU to $7,400 in MS-60 you will grade the coin the same as any common Morgan dollar. IMO, there will be a more precise system of describing coins with a number in our lifetime.

Examples of TPGS coins can be found over-graded, under-graded and mostly correctly graded. Under-graded coins are eventually corrected. Market grading by TPGS must be learned by all of us even though it differs from many of our personal standards.

 

I can't understand why the price guides don't reflect the fact that coins graded AU58 are usually much nicer than low-end MS coins. I paid premiums for many sliders and I don't regret it. Do people really pay more for an MS61...?