GSA Morgan Planchet Striations?

Good freaking idea. Should have happened two pages ago.

 

Log in or Sign up to hide this ad.

I think you put the hex on me. My NGC GSA submissions just got updated. That 1878 I showed you in a previous thread came back details cleaned!

 

You better go get a sage stick sean and do some purging!

 

The pitfalls of buying raw coins. CC dollars that aren't in a GSA slab, or NGC ribbons are definite victims of frequent cleanings. Sorry you got hammered, but that is why I just don't recommend buying raw Morgans. Moreover, despite what some others have said, some GSA coins were definitely cleaned before the GSA slabbed them--as I said, it wasn't done professionally. It was a mass government operation, with no attempt to ascertain condition.

 

I should be very interested to hear how you came to this conclusion. By your "name" and, the knowledgeable postings I like, I assume you are an "expert" on everything Morgan. I'll also assume you are a member of the Silver Dollar Roundtable.

There were millions of $ released. I have been told by an authority on Morgan's in the Roundtable (who personally spoke with Pitman, who helped sort some of the coins at West Point) that they were not "cleaned" in any way by the Mint. Toned coins were sent to the lower grade batch. You are correct that the process was not done professionally by qualified dealers/graders. A short and incomplete account of the process is in the Van Allen/Mallis Encyclopedia.

 

You know that none of them were cleaned-- bull hockey. It was an unscientific process. I don't care to whom you allegedly spoke. There was an example of a cleaned coin. Either it was switched, or encapsulate as cleaned ( more likely).

 

PS: Although I have only seen several hundred CC dollars in GSA holders(I am a rookie compared to you and other professionals here), I have NEVER seen a CC dollar in an original case that had ANY evidence of cleaning.

 

The process was

That's what the book and the people there said. The sorting process was a farce. The actual sale was very well done. Treasury should have sold the entire lot to the group of dealers who wanted to buy them.

I was not there but if a few of the sorters spit on a coin and rubbed it on their dress then I'll grant you that .00000001% of the batch was cleaned...LOL.

 

I'm not saying I've never seen a black-slab GSA coin adjudicated as cleaned before, and my concerns about the 1878-CC have been noted in the bespoke thread, but all the same the idea of cleaned GSA coins isn't seamless to me, logically. Here's why:

1) They sat perfectly still for decades in bags, the overwhelming majority never leaving storage from the day they were struck. How could they attract anything which required them to be cleaned? That said, toning may be easily expected; many spent their early decades in a much more sulfur-laden atmosphere than you and I enjoy today, because so much motive power was produced via coal back then. The top layers of bags, even in still air (probably even better for toning) would be awash in the typical atmosphere of the day. This is likely why so many of the nice Mint State coins recovered from cello are there just because of the poor opinion of their toning.

2) Of the ones which left Treasury possession and then returned, the overwhelming majority had to have circulated. There weren't Federal Reserve branches to store coins at for geographical need; coins were distributed in answer to specific orders (or crammed down the receiving throats who then dumped them into circulation just to be rid of them). Yes, the likelihood of Uncirculated coins (or circulated coins capable of being judged Mint State, we all know that's possible) having been cleaned in the wild and then returning is non-zero, and we can expect at least a few in a group of this magnitude, but....

3) I simply cannot see the GSA people exerting enough effort to clean coins except in the most extreme of circumstances. Enough labor was already involved in the process of recording and packaging each individual coin, and as a Government operation you certainly cannot expect they'd have manpower laying around waiting for the additional tasking of cleaning the coins. This had to be a fire drill, organizing and selling north of three million coins. Mind, there wasn't anyone on the payroll with the job title "Morgan Dollar Sales Operator." They would have had to just grab bodies from other taskings, to the detriment of those taskings, so the whole operation would have happened under time pressure.

Nope, I just don't see them going to the effort. So, my conclusion is that pretty much anything in black GSA plastic we adjudicated as "Cleaned" by a TPG - assuming we agree, which isn't certain as the 1878-CC indicates - has been tampered with since the sale. If the slabs can be cleanly broken and reassembled at all, some enterprising individual has mastered and exploited it.

All the same, this is presented as just the theory that best fits the facts. Punch holes in it if you will.

 

And in my opinion it is more likely that the TPG got it wrong. Yes I know heresy.

 

Actually, it is a higher percentage than you might think. I have seen perhaps a couple of thousand GSA Morgans. I'd say that maybe a dozen or so were obviously cleaned coins. So, that is not a high percentage, but definitely significant enough. Moreover, people think that the source for the GSA horde was only from the vaults. Not true--it was all remaining CC dollars from various sources. Who is to say that a cleaned one or two did not sneak into the pile, from outside sources--nothing nefarious, just logic--it was considered acceptable to clean coins in those days.

 

You just don't like TPGs, we all know that. That coin was NOT a TPG mistake--looking at it carefully, it is a damaged coin. I thought it to be a very rough Unc coin to begin with. Looking carefully, there are signs of a definite cleaning or mechanical manipulation.

 

I was speaking in general, not about the specific coin. I don't even remember what it looked like.

 

Let's also not forget that when there was a run on silver dollar bags in the 1960s many bags were searched for rarities such as the 1903-O and then deposited back.

 

I have had several coins come back from NGC as cleaned that showed absolutely no signs of cleaning. I think your opinion could very easily be correct.

 

I looked at the 78-CC in the GSA holder. Only thing suspicious is the stain at 5 O'clock and around the date. Reverse has stain around "dollar." Otherwise the coin looks OK but color under hair looks like chemical residue. Easy call if we could see the coin in hand to see what TPG saw. Even moisture could have developed over all those years and "dripped" on to surface - then evaporated. Or even dirty, greasy, pair of white gloves could have left the residue. Note that it does not come into contact with the surface next to the relief. Original poster should tip and rotate coin under light to take photos in different orientations.

 

Ok it's official, I hijacked this thread . I will post more pics as soon as I get it. My original impression was that the obverse was dull and the bag hits on the cheek did not have contrast like most Morgans. In fact, it looked very similar to a 1900-S i have that graded 62. The reverse shows no evidence to my eyes of any cleaning. The obverse was dull, so it was definitely tossed around. But honestly, TPGs get things wrong. I get things wrong too. I didn't like this one as soon as I saw it, but I thought it was honest.

I am not a rich man. I also appreciate learning and dedicating my efforts towards acquiring skills. I was itching for a 78 and jumped at the wrong one. I do not want to spend $1500 on a coin that was already graded when I can get a nice one for a third of the price. If there is a reasonably priced graded coin I will buy those as well.

Like I said before, lesson learned. What would the process be to even get this reconsidered?

Edit: I didn't hijack this thread, I don't even know what thread I 'm posting in any more

 

You can crack it and send it back in a few months - best with a few other coins. Perhaps (I doubt it because of stains) they will not recognize the coin. The same graders usually work on the same type/value coin tiers. Otherwise wait a few months and resubmit it - again with another CC GSA $ to help disguise the submission.

If it was my coin, I'd take it to the FUN show, or have a friend take it and show it to other grading services. Randy Campbell is at ICG and he knows $. ANACS gives free opinions and NGC has Mark Salzburg at the table for a short time w/appointment. DON'T TELL ANY OF THE TPG THAT IT WAS SENT IN TO NGC. If any service says it will straight grade - do it. If you wish to keep it in the GSA holder, find out if any service besides NGS puts a seal on the case w/grade. ICG does not. They remove coin and add GSA to label. They will also conserve it for free if you ask but you didn't hear that from me...LOL.

 

Pcgs keeps gsa dollars in the ogp if you want but they put the whole darn thing in thick case like a big bar of soap in a ditty bag

 

ANACS does