Cabinet Friction,stacking Or Wear

Oh, so very much this.

Grading from images is so different from grading in-hand that it amounts to a "dialect" of the grading language - visual clues are similar but very different in degree of application. Numismatists who learn to grade in hand well before learning to grade images consistently undergrade images until they learn the "correction." Learning to grade images first (solely) will form habits and expectations that will inhibit you and leave you overgrading, which is a bad thing.

And we have not yet talked about the vast and deceptive differences between cameras and imaging techniques; before you can hope to reliably learn grading from images you first have to learn to interpret images in general because one size does not fit all.

Yes, there can be value in learning both simultaneously, when you have a place like this as a resource for comparing notes with those who have been down the road before. But nothing can, and nothing ever will, replace learning to grade what's sitting in your hand.

 

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Amen to that...and with a good teacher right there with you the learning processes is faster. Anyway, I have posted before (I think) that grading coins from a photo is difficult. Some times you will be incorrect; however, experts like you, our moderator, and others on this site are pretty accurate IMO.

Interesting fact to consider. You might be surprised how accurate a beginner can grade when he has a coin and a grading guide in his hand.

 

Series/type specific photo-grading books can be useful for learning to grade circulated coins, but you won't get much, if any, use for point specific MS grades, or even AU ones at that. As previously mentioned you are much better off learning the guidelines with coins in hand and then applying that to grading based on photos.

 

Amen. Hands on w/teacher always better but don't burn the books...

 

The quality of digital photography these days is outstanding. There is no reason that you can't accurately assess the surface preservation, strike, and eye appeal of a coin using a quality digital photograph. The difficulty arises when you try to evaluate luster. The other problem is that raw problem coins can hide their problem in photos. That said, if you are buying certified coins, that is not an issue.

I have bought 100% of my collection online using nothing but digital photographs to evaluate the coin. I can count on one hand how many times I have returned a coin because the photo did not accurately portray the quality of the coin. I challenge anyone to view my collection and tell me that it consists of overgraded dreck.

Furthermore, I have been posting Guess the Grade threads on this forum for years. I know that they have been valuable teaching tools for many of the people who viewed them. To state that photographs are harmful to the grading process is simply ridiculous. While an in hand inspection of the the coin is the best way to grade a coin, verifying an assigned grade by a 3rd party grading service can be done with a quality digital image a large majority of the time.

 

Grading from images isn't harmful, it's imperative. You must develop the skill in order to be competitive in today's numismatic buying world. But it's different, and harmful to learn in the absence of hand grading.

At this point there is no excuse not to develop the skill to create professional-level images of your coins, save the inability to invest a few hundred bucks (~$400) in equipment. If you've paid that much for a coin or two, you can pay that much for pro imagery. There are smartphones out there - iPhones and Galaxy S4 that I'm certain of, more must exist - which can shoot gradable images of coins.

And if you shoot your own gradable images, you learn the nuances of each grading method on the spot.

 

Great info! I've been working on grading for several years now, really hard the last six months. Both photographs and hands on have been invaluable! My internet search a few weeks ago on Cabinet/Stacking Friction is what lead me to this exact thread and therefore Coin Talk. I've been working very hard on distinguishing MS from the slightest sign of circulation. I have read of guys that could distinguish wear on a Morgan slid one time across a crap table, I want to be able to do that. A couple weeks ago I bought a few Unc rolls of quarters and dimes and started experimenting. I would put a nice new coin in my pocket with nothing else for one day, then another one for two days or rubbed light across my shirt a few times etc. All the hard work has finally started to pay off. Hit a small coin show last weekend and I was shocked that the majority of the raw coins put out there as Mint State were definitely AU, how many AU58's were not even close to that grade and above all, how many coins had been cleaned!

 

Back to the Unc quarters. I pulled a few out with REALLY clean cheeks and slid them in and out of a new plastic flip a couple times and sure enough it left hairlines across the cheek. So today I was in a coin shop looking for some nice raw MS Mercs for my next grading set. The nicest Winged Liberty in the shop the owner had graded himself as MS66 FBL. Coin was gorgeous! I figured if I couldn't 66 the coin in my set I would at least be able to 5 it. But as I studied the coin, ever so slight across the cheek was the exact same hairlines I was getting with my flip experiments, not a lot, maybe five or six. I spent a long time making sure the hairlines were on the coin and not the 2x2. I then asked the owner about it and after looking at the coin for some time, and even lightly tapping the coin on the counter hoping the lines in question were on the mylar and not the coin, he finally shook his head as he came to the same conclusion. I know and trust the owner and I don't believe for a second that he previously knew the hairlines were there. A month ago I would have bought that coin. So as stated by others years ago in this thread, it doesn't matter how the hairlines got there, cabinet, stacking or album friction, the fact is, they are there!

 

Dear TubeRider,

Your lust for information inspires me want more posts from the advanced members on this site such as SuperDave. Later today, I'll print the opinions about stacking/wear/roll rub I promised to send to you; but your recent test on quarters is just as important.

Each of us develops their own set of "personal grading standards" all dependent on experience, how well you studied the subject, the knowledge of those around you giving opinions, your eyesight, etc. It's your money so the more you know the better. When I got into the hobby there were no grading services, only 2 popular grading guide books + the Red Book using "words alone." The coin business was like we imagine "the Wild West" to be.

At that time "No Trace (from whatever the reason) of Wear" was allowed on an Uncirculated coin. The description of the grade conditions as printed in Penny Whimsy were very conservative. I have read that those standards lead some numismatists to develop "Technical Grading" for archival purposes. That way a coin could be graded the same each time it was seen as long as it remained in the same condition with no changes.

Conservative grading was not acceptable to the marketplace. Along came "Cabinet Friction" and market acceptability in order to keep the value of pieces with a trace of wear (from whatever the reason) and have the Unc's everyone wanted.

I could have answered you with just the following but I wanted to give you a little history first:
1. Grading is personal/subjective based on several factors.

2. The amount of magnification used or the unaided eyesight of the grader can change the outcome.

3. Grading has evolved (as the TPGS like to say). This means it has become more liberal in the last forty years.

4. An experienced grader can find fault with just about any coin. I personally wish to see every hairline, hidden bag mark, spot, etc. when I examine a coin in hand.
That said, my conservative grading does not work in the coin market. So after I see everything, I need to BACK-OFF to assign a grade.

5. As a beginner, it is good to be conservative; nevertheless you'll need to learn how the experts/professional dealers grade.

6. I never had all the grading guides, online web guides, ANA Seminars/tapes, and professionally graded coins that new collectors of today have to speed the learning process.

I applaud your search for perfection. The fact that you noticed the condition of all those raw coins at the show and especially the cleaning puts you way ahead of most, but keep the fun of the game in your search. Try not to get stuck on rub until you learn how it happened (from evidence on the coin) and what type/how much is allowed by the "top-guns" in the profession that set the standards for all of us. Take this advice from some kid who was banned from a coin shop for pointing out one of the coins in a case was buffed!

PS I deleted any comments on "slide marks" and your experiment from this post because I don't wish to start a controversy with the experts.

 

Thank you for your information, I really appreciate it. When you get a chance could you expand on your statement, "Try not to get stuck on rub until you learn how it happened (from evidence on the coin) and what type/how much is allowed by the "top-guns" in the profession that set the standards for all of us." I think I am getting stuck there. I spent an hour looking a Mercs yesterday and came away with nothing. I did purchased other coins from the dealer since I spent a lot of time in his shop.

 

Opps...I got into this discussion trying to ID the different appearance of "luster loss" on coins from various types of friction.. I'm making a post on that tonight.

Your comments about learning to grade are true. Hands-on-with expert instruction from people who actually know what they are seeing on a coin, but please don't burn the books.

And remember we are not talking about Unc's or Detail's coins ... Nevertheless, you can take a great many non-collectors who only think of coins as money, give them a coin and Grading Coins by Photographs and they can get in the ballpark. The photos are GUIDES. In the future, the grading guides will surpass anything we have now - like comparing the "word guide" in the Red Book to the modern books.

Try this sometime - I have on many, many occasions. Take 6 circulated coins of any type and era. Give them to the know-nothing kids around the Christmas table and ask them to put them in order of grade. They can tell the difference between the major classifications. Try this with the old-timers at a coin club who know how to grade (I have twice just to make a point) and very often the rate of correct answers will be much lower... what gives...too much knowledge or just bad eyesight?

 

It that narrow example of using one photo from a book, you are right. But if you want to compare photographic examples within a grade or across different grades for a TPG, all you have to do is go to Heritage's auction archives and start studying. Add real coins into the mix and some time, it is not hard to build grading proficiency. You act as though this is rocket science Doug, it just isn't that damn hard.

Furthermore, everybody with a true interest in grading learns the written grading standards first. My guess is that most professional graders were coin dealers or advanced collectors before they became graders and had a wealth of experience dealing with many coins in many different grades across many series. So no, I don't think professional graders learned how to grade from pictures.

That said, I see people all the time across every forum give their opinion on the grade of a coin based solely on a photograph. This includes former professional graders like Mark Feld and many other expert level grading collectors. For a more expensive coin, they might give you a disclaimer that their opinion might change with an in hand inspection. But for something like a common date Morgan Dollar that is very easy to grade, they are just going to give their opinion of the grade and stand by it.

 

TubeRider,

Loss of original luster and surface is easy to see when you know what to look for and how to examine the coin (J.P. Martin says to make it "light dynamic").

Each of us needs to decide how much "luster loss from friction or whatever" is enough to make a coin YOUR PERSONAL AU. Grading is subjective. It can be demonstrated that even the standards change over time and "conditions in the market economy."

My standards are off the chart tough (similar to your 25c test) - no loss of original surface no matter what the cause. This is highly UNREALISTIC in the real world. Coins like this can be ultra rare and out of my $$$ (Capped Bust Half, Barber Half) but that is my standard. I don't teach or advocate this standard for anyone! The real world standard is set by the major dealers, auction prices, and TPGS. To be an informed, intelligent grader, you'll need to learn this standard by viewing coins in slabs. Made complicated by the fact that all MS-65's are not alike...LOL Strive to see everything there is to see on a coin so you can make an informed decision about your purchase. I commonly buy sliders or cleaned coins if I want them and the price is right but I don't get surprised later because I missed something like scratch hidden in the design by the toning.

So...the amount of unoriginality you will accept on a coin will be up to you. Your personal standard may change the more experienced you get. Truly Uncirculated "vintage" coins are scarce. We need TPGS's to weed out the others.

 

YES! Good instruction = many of the young tyro's who now grade for the TPGS!

 

Forgot how to add this ... I'm learning. See above post. YES!

 

TubeRider, This is one man's opinion:

1. Loss of a coin's original luster is just that - no matter what the actual cause which we sometime don't know for sure.

2. A loss of original luster can occur from chemical treatment, mechanical treatment (the hand of man involved), impact damage, or friction wear (rubbing of some kind from normal circulation).

3. A loss of original luster cannot occur due to strike weakness (for whatever the cause [a new thread?]. However, the original luster on the parts of the coin that are not fully struck will look differently than the normal luster found on the rest of the coin.

4. Loss of luster from any type of cleaning USUALLY (some surface alterations are very sophisticated) leaves evidence behind (often microscopic) for those who know what to look for [another thread? Ha, ha.].

5.Loss of luster from impact such as a bag mark leaves surface damage and is usually shiny until the surface is changed by natural ageing, toning, cleaning or coin doctoring.

6.Yes Virginia, there is an obvious difference between loss of luster from friction wear and roll/stacking pressure/slide rub. You only need to learn what each looks like. Stacking is usually shiny until the surface is changed by miss-handling, actual friction wear or the methods mentioned in #5 above.

Finally, actual friction wear is a back-and-forth abrasion (in varying degrees) from whatever the cause. It is the "bad" kind that usually will lower the grade. Again,
this all depends on how the person feels about the look of the actual surface, amount of rub, magnification and eyesight. Some consider any loss of originality wear.

Every collector must decide for themselves when there is enough loss of luster on a coin to drop it to AU. This goes for the TPGS professionals who also make allowance for a coin's composition, its value, and eye-appeal. Loss of luster in the field also provides clues to the MS/AU line.

Regards

 

Hey Insider & TubeRider, since you guys are pretty new to the forum and very interested in this topic, perhaps you would like to read a thread from 3 years ago about this same topic. And don't worry, Doug and I argue with each other all the time, we like it.

Guess the assigned grade 1924 Standing Liberty Quarter Bonus

 

What fun...Just pulled it up to view photo. Very quick first impression w/o looking for scratches & bag marks (wish I looked longer but I'm busy) my personal grade is: AU-58 due to loss of luster up the leg. Very unrealistic grade...LOL! I should guess 64 or 65 if original, undamaged and sent to TPGS.

Now I'll read the thread. Hope it's slabbed or you give us your opinion at the end. Just to CMA I can't grade actual coins from photos BUT I CAN USE PHOTOS to help grade actual coins. There is a difference everybody.

 

I've got to get back to work...will finish reading thread later. Thanks for sending it to the two Newbies.

As usual I have 2 quick things to add from what I read so far:

Eventually, TPG learn the standards set by the company (which can float a little due to coin market). Its the job of the finalizer in each tier to keep the grading consistent.

Old timers such as Doug and myself learned their personal standards when MS-65 was the top grade! I've been reminded on a few occasions that there are four more grades between MS-65 and MS-70...LOL.