Blue Patina Grave Finds

My Agrippa is looking rather blue:

 

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Intersting coins everyone. Thanks for posting.

All I can say is what I was told by one of the most successful ancient coin dealers ever. There were a couple of advanced collectors in the discussion as well and they seemed to agree. First I had ever heard of it but I the more I learn the less I know!

 

https://books.google.com/books?id=vRZaAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA588&lpg=PA588&dq=blue color bronze burial&source=bl&ots=fZragsIPJs&sig=Mme8nYoReGHpvwSgp3lARrl6jYw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj7nPjIgd7JAhVIGB4KHabPC9cQ6AEIQzAI#v=onepage&q=blue color bronze burial&f=false

 

Ah-ha! I know you now! I was present for this conversation.

 

Pardon me, but that is related to Chinese Bronzes. Yes, a massive amount of them went into graves and they have pulled tons of these out from those graves.

However, ancient Romans were cremated and their bodies buried in simple urns. The ancient Greeks had similar burrial practices. Many Emperors shose to have their cremated ashes interred inside monuments...so no room for grave goods...and the Romans did not have the practice of burrial with grave goods anyway, as well as most Greeks of the classical period (Macedonian kings being a notable exception).

When the Empire went Christian, that religion brought burrial instead of cremation, but Christian practice doesn't believe in burrial with grave goods either.

So yeah, maybe that applies to Chinese coins, but when it comes to Roman and Greek coins, the facts say those people who told you that are misinformed.

 

And that dealer was mistaken...because any amount of research into Roman and Greek burrial practices will destroy that hypotheses. Yes, he is a successful dealer and may know tons about coins, but people make mistakes.

 

First of all, coins with this "true" blue patina are extremely rare. None of the examples posted here qualify. I actually can't find an example right now, that's how rare they are.

Second, just take Victor with a grain of salt sometimes. This sounds to me like one of those stories that kicks around in the hobby for years but has little to no basis in fact.

 

Modern Christians possibly, ancients Christians no. Burial goods were always important, even now and across cultures and religions.

 

I agree. Most of the coins posted here are not really blue but shades of green. True deep blue colors sometimes pop up in Chinese coins (though I dont have a photo to post at the moment). They are rare and command premiums.

 

Find me some ancient Roman and Greek Christian burrials that archaeologists discovered packed with tons of goods for the afterlife, and I'll eat crow.

I'm always up for being corrected and learning something new, but I'm very skeptical when it comes to how these blue coins were allegedly created.

 

We're pretty much all in agreement that these are not caused by burial with human corpses. I mean, it's possible, I guess, but definitely not a proven fact.

 

I'll have to post it later but I have a campgate I'm currently cleaning that has a solid light blue patina all across it.

 

Yes. I was able to see that immediately. But you are pardoned.

I posted that because it talks about the conditions for bronze to gain a blue hue vs another color.

A piece of bronze does not know if it is Roman, Chinese or Indian. It does not know if it is a coin, a vessel or a statue. It is a metal made of atoms that oxidize, reduce, chelate and combine. It is the chemistry that changes the color. Understand the chemistry and you can then have a more insightful conversation on what makes a metal change color.

That was the point of posting it.

 

No, of course not tons, certainly not like the Egyptians, but the archaeological record is quite packed with documented Christian grave goods. It's not a new idea, and most modern burials also contain grave goods.

 

I'm sure enjoying how opinionated people seem to be about it. I don't have the slightest idea if it's true or not. Got a C in high school chemistry.

 

This has a dark, dark blue patina that so far I have been unable to capture with the camera.


Aelius (Caesar)
Coin: Bronze As
L AELIVS CAESAR - Laureate, draped, cuirassed bust right
TR POT COS II, PANNO-NIA S-C - Pannonia standing right, head left, holding vexillum in right hand and pulling swath of drapery across legs with left hand
Mint: Rome (137 AD)
Wt./Size/Axis: 11.50g / 24mm / -
References:

• RIC II 1071
• Cohen 25

Notes: Aug 16, 14 - Blue patina.

 

Blue and green patinas on copper coins are closely-related minerals in the copper carbonate family. Malachite [Cu2CO3(OH)2] is green while azurite [Cu3(CO3)2(OH)2] is blue. The formation of these minerals on copper-bearing rock in nature is essentially the same process as the formation of patinas on copper coins buried in the earth. Being similar chemically, malachite and azurite sometimes form together, as on the mineral specimen below. This piece was gifted to me several years ago by a lapidary friend. For scale, it is about 7" at the widest point.

 

This is the patina that is frequently seen on Chinese coins. I'd actually consider it more of a surface deposit.

I believe the mythical "true blue" patina that Victor was talking about would resemble the hard, emerald patina found on some of the best Roman Imperial bronze, only in a turquoise, as opposed to green, color.

 

I have a blue Chinese coin (N. Song 12th cent.) I would have to agree it is a deposit, I can supply a picture when I return home.

 

As promised.