GSA Morgan Planchet Striations?

It's roller marks.

 

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A possibility for sure. Could be handling damage as well.

 

I really hope you're right in that regard! The only way to know is to send it in, it's just a huge chunk of change to spend if it comes back details. That's why I'm so ambivalent about this one. I don't know if it would get a 63, but that would be something nice. My gut feels like it is 62, but the roller marks (citation needed) are an unknown variable. I've seen only a couple of details GSA Morgans, and they were both for counting wheel marks.

 

Counting wheel marks look totally different. They look like someone took an eraser to a small bit of the coin. Roller marks will affect the grade only as much as they affect the eye appeal of the coin.

 

It kind of has to be roller marks, just the most extreme example I've seen.

 

That's good, you can't really see the roller marks on the devices with the naked eye. Luster is still ok.

 

Look at the way the lines run across the fields up to the devices, cross the devices and continue across the fields even through tight locations as in this crop. It's planchet striations from roller wheels in my opinion.

 

The luster is just fine. Nice touches of frost. I would not worry that much about the marks. It is damage, but not out of the normal handling of the coin. I had an 1892cc that looked much like that, and it graded as a 63-- for sure, low in grade 63, but did grade.

 

Not damage, not pmd. Roller mark striations that were on the planchet and not fully obliterated during the strike. Why is this even a debate? Don't get me wrong, I like a good debate but this is crazy

 

Amen to that Cascade! First off, Newbie or not, I would put some YN's (Newbies) who have attended an ANA advanced grading class up against 70% of the coin dealers and 95% of the collectors in this country when it comes to grading coins and understanding the minting process.

As I understand the process, roller marks are going to be present on any strip that goes through a rolling mill having "well-used" and grooved parts. They will appear on the blank striations with the same metallic color as the blank's surface. Any planchet with these marks that is not fully struck up will show the lines on the finished coin. I am not going to describe what original planchet striations look like again (see post above). Nevertheless, if the coin is in original condition or only slightly circulated, the lines will appear as they do on the CC dollar.

It does not matter what got into GSA holders - we are only talking about this CC dollar which anyone should see is 100% original.

I have said nothing about swirls which are not on this coin either.
I do see what looks like a reflection from the holder in the out-of-focus photo. There are no swirls on the sharp images. Also I have only said that the lines on the reverse were striations and not evidence of cleaning or PMD. Sean is correct. He has a nice original, interesting, probably 63 CC dollar. I cannot think of anymore to be said about this coin so I hope to meet some of you again on another topic.

Guess I do have two more things. 1. Doug have you been converted?
And... 2. IMO (I'm slowly learning some of the "shorthand" you all use) any professional grader at a TPGS would be taken to the woodshed or sent to an ANA grading seminar if he detail graded a coin with roller marks!

 

Is it possible that these marks could have came from the blanking press or whatever was used to feed the strip into that press?

 

Do you mean like they were on the cookie cutter? Lol. I think it's pretty obvious these lines were rolled out over the planchet. On the feeder, I don't know exactly what they looked like in 1891, but I believe they just grab the coins on the sides.

 

This. Well done, Sherlock.

 

Never forget. All you need to start an asylum is an empty room and the right kind of people.

 

That was what I was trying to say earlier. Doug expanded what I was saying--the GSA encapsulation process was far from scientific or organized. I have personally seen quite a few "circulated" GSA Morgans in "uncirculated" GSA slabs. Same goes for the ones not labeled "uncirculated.--" a good friend got one of them, knowing the coin was a diamond in the rough, and it was MS 64 PL. The GSA project was rather large, and not directed in a knowledgeable way. So, expect some variation in the GSA coins--there is no guarantee that one is going to get a high quality uncirculated coin in a GSA holder. Moreover, collectors have had 30 years plus to pick over the GSA holder Morgans, and a lot of the "cherries" have been picked a long time ago. I will reiterate what I said previously--many damaged coins were encapsulated by the GSA--the coin in question for this lengthy debate shows some sort of physical damage--some are sure it is "roller damage." I am not by any means so certain of that fact, or that it is mint press striations either. It would be impossible to do any thing but speculate as to how the striations came into play, so why bother? Accept that this isn't the cleanest GSA Morgan on the planet, and if it does grade (I think it may well do so, as TPGs are liberal on those coins from the GSA horde), it will be low level MS--62 or 63 made sense to me.

 

Welcome to the asylum, it's getting impossible to escape.

First to GDJMSP: I see we have not won you over about the roller mark vs PMD question. Anyway, apologies to all as I put out some misinformation in my rush to respond to this thread - thankfully no one caught it or they did and did not wish to make me eat "Humble Pie" - if so THANKS.

The striations on the CC dollar are possibly not from the "breakdown rollers." They are heavy and when worn these could impart some grooves; however, after the breakdown of the ingots was completed the material was sent to a "finishing mill." The rollers were smaller here. Any striations on the strip could have been obliterated by these rollers, smoothed out and lessened, or even new ones added by worn rollers in this mill. Then the strip was sent to a mechanical draw bench to be pulled to its correct thickness. I do not believe the striations were imparted by the drawing bench machinery. Rollers in the two previous steps were removed and smoothed down when they became worn.

Just last week I heard some things I never knew (which Doug has just confirmed) about the Treasury sorting process and have been told the name of at least one of the "players." We received a coin in a GSA holder with a paper insert that read something like this (I'm not at work so cannot quote it exactly): This coin is not considered Unc due to marks or toning. The coin inside was a blazing, original, no problem MS-63+. Coins like this had a minimum bid of $15. I have heard that a group of coin dealers made an offer to buy the entire hoard but the Treasury turned them down and let some (as you pointed out) numismatists do the sorting. As a result the government lost a lot of potential profit. I know of one dealer who bid on five coins (the limit) and did very well. Doug is 100% correct...it was a crap shoot and no one realized so many beautiful coins were in the low-bid group. I'll bet older members of the Silver Dollar Roundtable know the entire story. If any are here, please enlighten us. Hummm, Doug seems to know a lot about what went on. Otherwise, I plan to speak to a few of them at the FUN Show in January.

 

Doug, in my first post, where I was being a little snarky, that's why I stated this was a "BU" coin. I guess I should have expanded about the gsa like you did which is why I "liked" your post above. But that has nothing to do with this coin. I highly doubt this was a slightly circulated before being put back into the vaults coin but even if it were the coin speaks for itself... a very softly struck coin on a planchet with heavy roller striations. We only know what a coin can tell us by looking at it, not what "could" have happened to it... and this one SCREAMS what it is

 

Some one should ask Daniel Carr to put a series of roller marked planchets into his press with one of his fantasy designs. Have him vary the pressure to see how that obliterates the roller marks.

 

Morgandude11,

I think I know your friend who got the 64 PL from the GSA sale. We were just talking about that coin last week.

Think about this: "It would be impossible to do any thing but speculate as to how the striations came into play, so why bother?"

This is true (But, why bother?). Education my friend. We don't know what actually caused them; however, long-time numismatists have named these striations on a coin "roller marks." This coin is a "poster child" for this characteristic.

Ok, some here do not wish to say how they happened. What is important in this thread is to make sure any collector out here that reads about or sees a coin like this understands immediately that the striations are not damage to the coin after it was struck. They are 100% original "relics" on an Uncirculated coin that was not fully struck!