GSA Morgan Planchet Striations?

Are the lines as coarse or are they smoothed down more on the 89? Looks like it didnt affect the grade!

 

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They're pretty coarse especially if you compare them to say the fine hairlines of being rubbed or cleaned although they are more pronounced on yours for sure. I like it!

 

The lines are completely parallel though. Reason would dictate that if they were PMD there would have to be some deviation in the lines. Also, the obverse has the same type of lines.

 

In this image you can see the lines continue undisturbed between the letter O, while the high points of some letters are free of lines. If this was an exterior scraping force, how could the scraping device go inside the letter but leave the high points of other letters smooth with lines around them.

 

Exactly sean! Plus they go in the same direction (opposite when flipped) just like a woody.

 

I'm having trouble with the second paragraph. Are you saying the lines are not in the same direction? Because they are in the same direction if you think about it.

I understand that a sanded floor can produce parallel lines, but for it to be scraped on the floor, like you said for an inch or two, with no other impact marks or random marks, would require a surgeon's precision and to me seems outside the realm of possibility.

To address your edit, the reason the lines are more prominent in the details could be because, as Dave said earlier, the recessed parts of the die never actually touched the metal. If the dies are spaced a little too far apart, then a weak strike occurs and the deepest parts of the die barely touch the metal, if at all. And to me, the striations look wider on the devices, which would correspond with your explanation of what happens when the metal gets pushed into the die. To me, the striations would be more prominent on parts of the coin that received the least pressure. How many Morgans have those striations on the ear and cheek?

But it sounds like I'm not going to convince you, so I will appreciate your commentary on what happens on the press. It is fascinating to think about what occurs on a microscopic level.

 

Had that coin not been a GSA, I could have sworn it was a cleaned coin. As has been said previously, the striations (or cleaning marks) are in multiple directions. In some cases, they are swirl like, which is generally a dead giveaway for a cleaning. Is it possible that it was cleaned before it was slabbed as a GSA coin? Yes it is possible, although when would it have been cleaned, given the nature of the horde. To me, the physical appearance of that coin is consistent with a cleaning.

 

He is the one who spanks you if you are bad!

GDJMSP

 

Are you sure you're not looking at the scratches on the holder and ziplock bag? I don't see any swirls at all on the coin, and the striations are in one direction.

 

Look around the eagle's head. I see circular whirls there. I took these two illustrations to show the difference between wear, striations and cleaning marks. The comments do speak for themselves---look at the difference in appearance between normal bag marks/wear and cleaning abrasive marks:

 

So your opinion is that the coin has been cleaned and will not grade?

 

I think the coin looks somewhat suspicious, but GSAs generally grade. Hard to say. The swirls indicating some post mintage mechanical process seems pretty clear to me, and I am sure that you know what bag marks look like. They are different, and striations are usually unidirectional, as was said previously. It is a GSA, so a lot of them just grade readily, but I honestly don't know what they would do with this coin. It has that suspicious look of having been cleaned. It isn't definitive, but suspicious--that's all.

 

I'm really trying to see the swirls you're referring to. I just can't. I really want to take this out of the ziplock bag, but now I don't know if I should keep it. So I will just reiterate the close up photos were taken with a loupe through a ziplock bag and the GSA holder.

That being said, you have brought another angle to this thread that had never occurred to me. What if the holder was tampered with and a GSA coin replaced with something else? Or was it cleaned before holdering? Did cleaning coins take place when the GSA was doing inventory and sorting?

 

Please, please, please, guys - stop it. Forgive me but I am starting to sound like some "Know-it-all" and I don't like that.

The coin in the GSA holder is 100% original with mint striations caused by roller marks on the planchet. I have several of these coins. They especially occur on Morgan dollars. The lines are detracting but they also add character to a coin (like a chop mark) and make for a good discussion. The coin is flatly struck and exhibits the usual white frost found on these coins along with the different looking "flat strike luster common over the ear of NO coins.

I enjoyed Doug's description of the strike process. I shall copy it for my files after awarding a "like". It deserves a "Best Answer" but I'll need to read the rules for that award.

Now, as you all know, PMD changes the surface of the coin. The CC dollar is a totally original beauty. The case was not opened and no mint employee messed with it. Please trust me on this. When I kick a coin across a cement floor (and I have done this several times in demonstrations) the coins look NOTHING LIKE this. There is absolutely no evidence of any kind of cleaning on the GSA dollar.

Will one of the doubters explain to us how the untouched, frosty, surface remained in the striations (roller marks). The frost is even evident on the fine lines in the field that are partially obliterated by the strike. The frosty color continues up into the design. This is Grading 101 guys.

I recommend that every collector purchase one of these CC coins in an original GSA holder just to see what original mint luster looks like. I know - there are several different types of mint luster on coins from the different mints so let's not start that string going. On second thought, it should be nice to hear how each of you describe the various surfaces - frosty, satin etc. for each mint. I'm all about learning from professionals. For example, I never learned how to tell the mint of a dollar by its color, strike and rim shape so I am all ears.

PS I am really enjoying joining this forum and have already learned a lot. I hope we can convince Doug to come over to the Dark Side...LOL.

 

I was thinking roller lines imparted to the strip too but wouldn't that mean more of this year would have these lines? I looked up the CCs, they're just over 1.6 million minted. I suppose these just could have been imparted to just a few of the strips? I think it will grade, FWIW.

 

More than a little know- it-all for a newbie, I would say? lol. As it were impossible that circulated, or damaged coins didn't end up in the GSA horde? I have personally seen quite a few, actually, that would not fit the description of "uncirculated" in GSA holders. Mistakes were made in encapsulating said coins. Some of them, in point of fact DO NOT grade. BTW, what exactly does frost and luster have to do with a damaged, post-mintage coin??? Did the poster never hear of Unc.Details coins??? Perhaps not, I reckon. So many Morgans end up as uncirculated details coins-- would the GSA encapsulation process prevent those from ending up in GSA holders?? The answer is obvious--I cannot say for sure that it is an ungradeable, damaged coin, but I do have some suspicions.

 

So are you saying the straight parallel lines are PMD? Or are you introducing swirls into the equation? I still can't find the swirl marks. If you are saying the straight, obvious, parallel lines were caused after the coin was minted, how did it happen? Do you agree with Doug's theory that a shovel scored the coin or the mint girls used it for field hockey practice? It seems you are saying that the coin was cleaned. Did they use sandpaper to clean it?

I can establish that the coin was not circulated. The reason why I posted the thread is for help determining if the coin is able to be graded. If you are insisting the coin was cleaned now there is reasonable doubt.

 

I see marks, of unknown origin, that are consistent with surface damage. However, I think the coin will probably grade, as the TPGs know that the horde was not gently treated-- e.g shoveling into bags and containers. My guess is that especially NGC would grade the coin-- probably as a 63. I do not suspect that the coin was circulated-- that was just an example to another poster than not all of the uncirculated GSAs are truly uncirculated. I'd guess that NGC particularly would ribbon that coin as a 63.