Buy the coin, not the slab

Fear not. I was a US slabbed coins snob myself, but this forum converted me into a raw coin fanatic. I now have 9 raw coins.

First, there's just better pricing in buying raw. It seems like whenever someone slabs a coin, all of the sudden they want double what it's worth and this is due to the $50+ cost of having the coin slabbed.

Second, its fun to make your own labels and catalog system, and you learn way more about your coins that way. Slabbed Ancients don't have a lot of information on the label because it all doesn't fit there, so you lose a lot of knowledge about that coin. This is a case of you learn more by doing it yourself.

Third, NGC is not perfect, and they don't guarantee the authenticity of any slabbed ancient. By encasing it, it gives a false presumption that the authenticity of the coin cannot be questioned, when in fact they make no guarantee about the coin. And there is no way to actually weigh the coin, measure it, look at the edges, look at the surface of the coin in detail, or any of the other things one would do to actually determine authenticity because it is encased in a slab.

 

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I get the "new collector" argument, but I think some of the things NGC does are dishonest and done more to trick new collectors than help them. Look at the "Colosseum Hoard" slabs for instance. I couldn't find much information about them at all, but the chance they have any relation to the Colosseum? Slim to none. Italy simply wouldn't allow a hoard, especially one found near the Colosseum, to make its way to market in this day and age, yet I think someone posted in this very forum a few months back asking about the significance of the hoard and thinking it was related to the Colosseum.

 

This point should be stressed in any discussions about slabbed ancients. US collectors dipping their toes in ancient waters assume NGC guarantees authenticity of ancients they slab, since that guarantee is a big selling point for slabbed silver dollars. Hell, "Guarantee" is part of their name. Newbies are shocked--not in a good way!--to learn there's no such guarantee for NGC-slabbed ancients.

 

To anyone familiar with the way NGC works, they do the same with US coins. They will put a label on the slab with the picture of someone famous, or a theme that has nothing to do with the coin itself. They do this because one of their high end clients paid them extra money to do it so they can sell the coins to non-collectors at a higher price, or simply to create more interest and chatter. I personally think it is a very unethical practice, but NGC has been getting away with it for a long time.

 

No question at all, they're getting worse and worse in their efforts to cater to the telemarketers. I know for a fact that isn't Vagi's doing; he doesn't particularly like it, but by not speaking out against this trend, he's acquiescing to it. I think he should basically give an ultimatum to the powers-that-be at NGC: cut out the enabling of misleading, borderline dishonest telemarketer crap or I'm out of here. I get that he needs a job, but if the NGC honchos have anything resembling a brain, they fully understand that they have zero chance of replacing David with anyone who even approaches his knowledge and credibility. NGC-slabbed ancients were a laughing-stock until he came on board; they must know that.

 

I'm going to go a bit against the grain here and say that I believe seat makers should build seats if there are butts to fill them. Clearly, there's a market for slabs so slab away I say. It really doesn't affect me all that much as a collector one way or another.

My primary concern is that a company is representing a coin, certified in a particular condition and I think they need to be accurate if they are being paid to provide that service. As Phil pointed out, I also think it is misleading that Numismatic Guarantee Company doesn't guarantee anything when it comes to ancients. I just expect, somehow, that this should be done better.

I personally do not believe that slabbing will take over the ancients market. There are too many butts in the ancient market that desire a seat that isn't made of hard plastic! There's a naked/raw joke in there somewhere that I'm going to resist temptation to pursue...

 

But couldn't you just as easily say that clearly there are butts to fill the vaguely-graded, not-guaranteed-as-authentic seats?

I've just never been convinced by the if-there's-a-vacuum-it-must-be-filled argument. You can say there's nothing you can do about it (though we do do things about it, via discussions like this one and the hazing of slabbed collectors), but I don't know that the argument that we should just get OK with it is very convincing.

 

This is the gist of the "it's inevitable" argument and since slabbing is what NGC does for a living, it's entirely within their business purview to attempt to extend their business into the world of ancient coins. Knowledgeable collectors of ancients will roll their eyes at NGC's fairly lame attempts to create and apply fixed grades to ancient coins, but it's a business to them and I cannot seriously fault their attempt to do so, only their results.

Note that it's an entirely different argument as to whether or not NGC will ultimately succeed in establishing slabbing of ancients as a worthwhile service. Personally, I think that after a few more years of doing this, their services will be limited to lower-grade coins purchased only by newcomers who lack knowledge and believe that buying a slabbed ancient coin allays their fear of being duped by counterfeits.

And ultimately, this last observation is the reason I believe that NGC will find only limited success in the business of grading and slabbing ancients: there is no actual "Guaranty" in NGC's slabbing and grading process, so in reality what is the purchaser gaining by buying a slabbed coin? Peace of mind is worth only so much if there is no real guarantee behind slabbed coins, and after a few stories of how NGC slabbed and graded some counterfeit coins, the market may come to realize that the NGC slab is really pretty much worthless.

 

Hey, baby steps. At least they no longer confuse Caracalla and Elagabalus.

 

Eventually everything will be in a slab.

They slab video games still in boxes, action figures, and even cereal boxes for goodness sakes. Where there is a collectable there will be a slab waiting in the wings.

 

The answer is to collect abstractions. Good luck slabbing the various freedoms I've collected over my 35 years! This hobby will remain pure!

 

I know. Videogame fanatics need not worry anymore about buying and playing video games. Now they can stare at the box encased in plastic and dream about how nice it would have been if they could actually play the game. Too bad, but hey, at least the box is in a shinny slab.

Same with comic books. If you enjoy reading comic books so much that you wish to collect them, just buy one encased in plastic that you'll never be able to read. But hey, at least your commodity...uhm comic book...is protected and graded. Reading is overrated anyway.

And now they are doing it to us here, and it is up to us to say...no thanks NGC, I don't want my coins turned into a commodity item in a slab.

 

This man has a future in politics.

 

Let's face it, slabs for ancients were coming like it or not. As a long time dealer I always hated the idea and I still do. But, there are opportunities. The slabbing companies (even with Vagi) make huge mistakes every day. They, and their main auction output, Heritage, are simply machines. Put out the volume and make money on what comes. I have bid on slabs (though I hate them I leave them as is) and bought some insane rarities for pennies on the dollar. Mostly you will find extremely common and lower grade stuff, and yes, they will sell for much more than the average ancient collector. However, I have found some gems in the rough. In the past couple of years I have found several that are one of two or three known, and several that are linked to very old published collections. So, in this wild west time of slabbed ancients, look closer. One can make some really good buys if you have the knowledge. Let them make their mistakes, it will only benefit us.

 

One good thing we may have overlooked is that slabs keep the newby buyers of nice coins from scrubbing them into Proofs. My problem with the concept is not someone paying for an opinion of an unknown expert (Does David Vagi look at them all?) but that they expect the next buyer to reimburse them for that opinion. On a $5000 coin the extra $50 may not be a big deal but the number of $20 coins in plastic that cost more than they did is ridiculous. A $20 coin with the blessing of someone I do not know is worth exactly $20 to me.


Back in 1997 when I started my Grading pages I settled on dividing 'situations' into two parts. I called things that happened to the coin at the mint "Conditions of Manufacture" and things that happened after "Conditions of Preservation". My first draft included a scale from 0-9 for each so a really nice coin might be EF99 while an equally unworn coin mis-struck and corroded would be EF11. The problem was that my set of photos illustrated many things that could affect these numbers and I could not settle on a way to, for example, relate a patchy patina and porous surface. Either could make a coin a level 5 for Preservation but some people would prefer one and others the other. It made no difference since I was not trying to sell containerized coins but just to point out that terms like VF and EF did not mean a lot with ancients. Below are four coins in the aVF range but with different surfaces. Which is an 8 and which is a 2 might be more opinion than fact but the crack on the Domna would definitely make it low on its Manufacture number completely unrelated to its Preservation.


Similarly compare the Manufacture situations of the Domna above and three below (the adjustment scratches on the horse are pre strike and very common on that type). How do you relate such variations in a single digit?




NGC two numbers seem very much like mine but, I believe, poorly named. There are many things in Manufacture besides Strike and many things in Preservation beyond Surfaces. That is partially why I was thinking 1-9 keeping 0 for things not describable in simple terms. Why they decided to use a five scale rather than ten, I'll never understand. Certainly VF 5/5, 3/5 tells me more than just VF but it hardly prepares me to buy sight unseen.

 

I dislike slabs, but I must say this conversation repeating every other month is becoming tedious. I know, I know. New collectors/forum members need to read the arguments and educate themselves, but how often does it need repeating? I'm just sayin'......

 

Bing,

I get your point. But there are many new members. I myself, who have been on various lists since the inception of the web, never knew about this site and just found it about a month ago. It seems to be the most active for ancients I can think of. Forum is close, not not nearly as active. Moneta is dead, so, I assume the majority are here?

 

Great post Doug. I especially like this distinction: "I called things that happened to the coin at the mint 'Conditions of Manufacture' and things that happened after 'Conditions of Preservation'."

I'm very much a "technical" grader myself. I'll grade as EF any coin that is indeed EF regarding wear from circulation, no matter how poorly it was made, but I'm careful to accurately describe what it looks like. Hopefully no one is misled if I describe some dreadful piece like this: "EF, but weakly struck from worn dies with areas of flatness; somewhat corroded, especially the reverse."

I don't think anyone will expect a gem from that description!

 

As a dealer I tend not to grade coins anymore. If I really have something I think is nice I will occasionally describe it as "EF" or whatever. BUT, as I say, I dont grade anymore. People can look at the photo (as long as it is a good one) and decide for themselves. I may call it 'Fine' but others may call it 'Extremely Fine'. Who am I to argue? We all see different things. Personally I have no issue with worn coins, but worn coins with bad surfaces I dont like. If I see a sestertius in VG, I like it if the surfaces are free from corrosion, pitting, encrustations, etc.

But, on the other hand, there is one collector here in California who only wants what he calls 'FDC'. For me, that is less than 1% of ancients and he is not likely to find many. This guy is wealthy and spends 100k or more per year. But I have never sold to him as I wont tell him my EF+ off center sestertius is FDC. Just in the eye of the beholder.

 

No need to worry, Doug. They can buy freshly scrubbed slabbed coins from GreatCollections, such as this (ahem) lovely sparkling clean Galerius follis, which cost someone $352:



If you want a good laugh/cry, browse GreatCollections. They have slowly been adding more ancients, all slabbed and mostly low-end or common coins yet with incredibly high estimates. That some of these were slabbed in the first place is astonishing. Sales have been slow but they're picking up. I bet that most sales are to non-ancient collectors. Below are some cringers currently for auction. Generally, I don't condone posting currently-for-auction coins but deterring someone's bidding plan in this instance is a public service.

Opening bid $360:


Opening bid $275:


Opening bid $400:


Opening bid $200:


Edited to add: I do still browse GC because once upon a time I bought a very desirable coin from that company. The coin is not in great condition but it is a difficult type to find in any condition (Carthage 15 shekel). It wasn't slabbed, although it had been sent to NGC (photo cert; not slabbed due to size). I was biting my nails planning a last-second bid bomb and won it for the shockingly low opening price. I guess most GC buyers don't trust a coin not in a slab... or maybe it was just too ugly. I'm delighted to have it though.