Livia and Livilla are both on my "Bust coins that I'd like to get" list. So far as I've been able to tell, Livia appears on some provincial coinage. However, Livilla only appears on these dupondii. There seems to have been 2 variations issued under Tiberius for Drusus as Caesar, one variation is a woman "as Justitia" and another "as Pietas". A restoration issue was then released under Titus, which seem to be attempts at reproducing the coin designs with the reverse legends being the only big difference. I'm confused by the fact that some of these coins are claimed to be "Livia as" and some are claimed to be "Livilla as", but I can't find any indicator on the coins by which these assumptions are being made. So: - Am I missing something that indicates the difference? - Did the Titus issues wrongly assume that both were Livia, even though the original issues depicted different women? - Or is there no way to tell who it is supposed to be, and we think that all of them could be either woman? I ask because, while searching through auction listings, it seems as though the coins consistently bring more money when claimed to be Livilla. This leads me to believe that there is a way to tell, however, I suppose that it could also be a marketing ploy to dupe ignorant buyers (Like me ). Edit: Not my coins by the way.
If it isn't simply a representation of Pietas, it's likely to be Vipsania. I find Jasper Burns' argument convincing.
Tiberius' first wife... Vipsania Agrippina? Well, throwing yet another candidate into the pool certainly doesn't clarify things From what I've been able to find on the subject, scholars had tended to believe that the originals were representations of Livia. A reference published in 2000 that I found (Imperial Women: A Study in Public Images, Vol 194, pg 177) said, "Tiberius attempted to suggest his dynastic plans subtly and discreetly to the Senate and public, as his treatment of his own mother has indicated: he was willing to make use of her image on the coins of A.D. 22, for example, but not to institutionalize her role with official titles and privileges. None of the younger women of his family, therefore, appeared on coins at all during his principate, and we consequently lack the most useful form of evidence for their identifications in other media." It seems the idea that the representation might be Livilla was proposed by David Vagi (Coinage and History of the Roman Empire II, pg. 127). I don't have access to that text though. And then there's the Jasper Burns' argument that you linked. Thanks for that by the way, I somehow managed to miss coming across that one! Oh well, taking all of this into consideration, I think I'm just gonna chalk this one up to a great big, "WE DON'T KNOW". At least that eliminates the possibility of being wrong. Like you suggested, in reality these coins may not have been intended to represent a real person at all, then the joke would truly be on us haha!
Hi All, I have no knowledge of this type of coinage but I do have access to Vagi's book. In it he thanks Matthew Kreuzer "especially in helping advance the idea of Livilla on coinage". He goes on later to say: "Numismatic Note: Livilla is represented on only one coin type a dupondius of 22/23 issued by Tiberius in the name of his son, Drusus. However, this is not acknowledged in the standard references, such as RIC, BMC and Cohen. Though this correct identification was proposed late in the 19th Century, it was not adopted in Cohen’s multi-volume treatise (which was revised and republished from 1880-1892), and as a result it has been largely overlooked. Of the three dupondii which Tiberius struck in the ‘family’ bronzes of 22/23, the one which honors Livilla bears the bust of Pietas, the personification of duty toward the gods, the state, and the family. As such, Pietas was the ideal guise for the public image of Livilla. She was, after all, the wife of Drusus and the mother of Tiberius’ twin grandsons. Equally strong evidence can be found with the reverse inscription, for it is the only one of the three dupondii which bears Drusus’ name and titles (the other two name Tiberius). In the family aes series of 22/23, only three coins bear Drusus’ name in the inscriptions: the as which portrays Drusus, the sestertius which honors the twin sons he allegedly sired, and the Pietas dupondius. The three coins make a family set: a sestertius for the children, a dupondius for the mother and an as for the father. As if more evidence were necessary we should also consider that these are the only three Imperial coins bearing the name of Drusus (and, as such, they all should be of relevance to Drusus and his family). Indeed, to conclude anything other than that it is Livilla who is meant to be honored by the Pietas dupondius is simply to ignore the overwhelming evidence at hand. Ironically, this issue reflects the public image of Livilla as a devoted mother and wife, in reality she was neither. Not only did she conspire with her adulterous lover Sejanus to murder her husband, but it seems likely that her twin sons were sired by Sejanus. As such, the Pietas dupondius is one of the least-forthright issues of the Julio-Claudians. For details about the other two dupondii in the series, see the Numismatic Notes following the biographies of Livia, Antonia and Agrippina Senior." - Broucheion
Thanks a lot for posting this, I was curious to know what was said and wouldn't have had quick access to it otherwise. Assuming that it came from a hardcopy, that was a lot of transcribing This is interesting.... I wonder if "one coin type" it is meant to mean "one imperial coin type"? According to the owner comments for this coin posted on the NGC Collector's Society website: https://coins.www.collectors-society.com/wcm/coinview.aspx?sc=420962 There was a provincial issue with Livilla's bust from Lesbos. Of course, they also say that there are only about a dozen known and most are in museums, so it's not something that I could plan on getting anyway!
And then there’s the Flavian Domitillas. There doesn’t seem to be any question that this sestertius issued under Titus was in remembrance of his mother Domitilla the Elder. But there’s less consensus on the identity of the bust denarii and aureii that were initially thought to have been produced under Titus, but are now thought by some to have been minted under Domitian (based on metal analyses). Some say that “Augusta” is a clear indication that these are of mother, yet others claim that Domitian bestowed this title on his sister. Not that I have any expertise beyond what I can pick up in a 5 minute Google search, but I’m of the opinion that they were all intended to represent Domitilla the Elder. What do you guys think? (Not my coins)
