Characteristics of cleaned coins

Discussion in 'US Coins Forum' started by oldwormwood, Nov 22, 2015.

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  1. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    Just because you can't see scratches and hairlines in the picture, doesn't mean they are not there.

    Also, think of a polished coin, do you see scratches and hairlines on a polished coin ? No. But that is because the course scratches and hairlines are rubbed away by the polishing until only very small hairlines that can only be seen with high magnification remain. Nonetheless, every polished coin has been harshly cleaned.
     
    GDJMSP, Nov 30, 2015
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  3. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    Value varies depending on several things, the severity of the harsh cleaning, the amount of detail remaining on the coin, the scarcity of the coin, the eye appeal of the coin. Even a potential buyers opinion affects the value. Rule of thumb, the value of a problem coin can be anywhere from 20-80% of what a problem free example is worth.

    As to what they are harshly cleaned with, no it really doesn't matter, harsh cleaning is harsh cleaning.There are a thousand different things that a coin can be harshly cleaned with, and many different methods of doing it. What you consider bad, I might consider worse, or vice versa. But in the end harsh cleaning is just harsh cleaning.

    That's just another way of saying how do you identify a harshly cleaned coin. But there is no simple answer answer because harsh cleaning has many different looks, many different diagnostics. And that's because of what I said above that there are a thousand ways to do it. Trying to describe them all would require an entire book with several different pictures of each one. And I say several different pictures of each one because unless the picture and the angle of the light is just right, you can't and won't see it in a picture. Learning how to identify a harshly cleaned coin is one of the hardest things there is to learn in numismatics.

    It also depends on the condition of the coin. For example, it is fairly easy in most cases to identify an MS coin that has been harshly cleaned. But it is harder with an XF or VF coin, in some cases. In other cases it is equally as easy. There are just so many different variables that it's very hard to describe with the written word.

    Learning how to identify harshly cleaned coins requires experience, a lot of it, and there simply is no substitute for that experience.
     
    GDJMSP, Nov 30, 2015
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    micbraun likes this.
  4. spenser

    spenser Active Member

    How can you see the scratches if they're not there ?
     
    spenser, Nov 30, 2015
    #23 + Quote Reply
  5. USS656

    USS656 Here to Learn Supporter

    What Doug is saying is that on a polished coin prior to polishing there were more scratches than there are after the coin is polished. Parts of the fields that are hard to polish will still have some of the tell tale scratches that are seen on a cleaned coin. For the areas that are polished, many of the lines are rubbed smooth by polishing. Depending on how much polishing, even in these areas you may see lines under magnification.
     
    USS656, Nov 30, 2015
    #24 + Quote Reply
  6. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    Spenser, you are assuming that the scratches are not there because you can't see any in that picture. What I was trying to explain to you is the scratches may very well be visible on that coin, they are just not visible in that picture because of the angle of the lighting used in that picture. Take another picture of the same coin, from a slightly different angle and the scratches may be plain as day.

    That's the thing about pictures, all pictures, taken from one angle you cannot see something, taken from a different angle you can see it. You can also make a coin look entirely different in pictures, merely by changing the angles slightly. I've long used this coin as a good example of that.

    1911_Proof_half_crown_obv 1.jpg 1911_Proof_half_crown_rev 1.jpg 1911_Proof_half_crown_obv.jpg 1911_Proof_half_crown_rev.jpg


    That is the exact same coin in both sets of pictures, but look at how different the coin appears in each set. Most people, if they saw those pics, would swear up and down it was 2 different coins. But I took both sets of pictures, on the same day, and all I did was to change to angles slightly.

    The same kind of thing happens with hairlines or fine scratches on a coin from a harsh cleaning. In one pic you won't be able to see any at all. But in another pic they can almost jump out at you, assuming you get the angle right.

    Now the TPG had that coin in hand, they could tilt and turn it under a light and see that it had been harshly cleaned. But that is only because they could tilt and turn it and see it from all the different angles. Even in hand you won't see anything from one angle, but you will from another. The eye works the same way a camera does, it's all a question of the reflection of light.

    Now in that particular picture, just like you, I can't see any scratches or hairlines either. But what I know from experience tells me that coin has been harshly cleaned just by the way the coin looks in that picture. In other words I don't have to see the hairlines to know that.
     
    GDJMSP, Nov 30, 2015
    #25 + Quote Reply
  7. spenser

    spenser Active Member

    I've been collecting coins for over 35 yrs. I respect your opinions, Please respect mine. If the gentleman sends the coin in for grading and it come's back as cleaned I will pay the costs. If it comes back original you pay. PCI will do.
     
    spenser, Nov 30, 2015
    #26 + Quote Reply
  8. SuperDave

    SuperDave Free the Cartwheels!

    Because not all images show them, even if they're there. That's why only a fool forms opinions strong enough to bet on from one set of images.
     
    SuperDave, Nov 30, 2015
    #27 + Quote Reply
  9. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    Uhhh Spenser, I do respect your right to have your own opinion. But in point of fact that coin was sent to a TPG and the TPG said harshly cleaned -

    [​IMG]


    That's the picture of the coin used in the very first post of this thread. That's the coin we are talking about.
     
    GDJMSP, Nov 30, 2015
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  10. swamp yankee

    swamp yankee Well-Known Member

    The 59 has a "dead" look to it =no lustre left. The 78 has a subtle look"in hand" even with the handling filth that shows the original surface is still there under it all.You will need to look at as many as possible to develop this skill,the rest of us did/have. Best of luck.....
     
    swamp yankee, Nov 30, 2015
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  11. spenser

    spenser Active Member

    OK, you got me. However. It does not say harshly cleaned. And I am not a fool!
     
    spenser, Nov 30, 2015
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  12. spenser

    spenser Active Member

    Just highly opinionated. Can any of you say that you've NEVER been wrong?
     
    spenser, Nov 30, 2015
    #31 + Quote Reply
  13. spenser

    spenser Active Member

    What would you say is the "proper" way to clean a coin ?
     
    spenser, Nov 30, 2015
    #32 + Quote Reply
  14. spenser

    spenser Active Member

    I know that the question of proper cleaning has came up many times but nobody really answers the question. It alway's moves to improper cleaning. I have a 1916 SLQ in G-4 that looks like someone took comet cleanser to it. Has a full date and I bought it about 25yrs ago for $250
     
    spenser, Nov 30, 2015
    #33 + Quote Reply
  15. CeJota13

    CeJota13 New Member

    PCGS most likely deemed the 59 cleaned because of the pitting in the coin. If you look at the surface of the coin you can see little dents in the coin. This is usually a sign of a cleaning. The 79 doesn't show obvious signs of cleaning and would require seeing the coin in hand for a closer look.
     
    CeJota13, Nov 30, 2015
    #34 + Quote Reply
  16. Kentucky

    Kentucky Supporter! Supporter

    I want so badly to clean certain coins I can taste it in my throat. Now with that being said, proper cleaning (or conservation) will never involve touching the surface of a coin with anything other than a liquid. As to the types of proper liquids, they should not alter the surface metal. How can you do this...soaking in a variety of pure solvents and CAREFUL dipping with some coin dips.
     
    Kentucky, Nov 30, 2015
    #35 + Quote Reply
  17. spenser

    spenser Active Member

    I have a 1917-D TY 1 SLQ that has horrific black and brown toning. Also there are apparent past cleanings because there are very small and even scratches that appear to have been done with a cloth instead of the less obvious cotton swab. Should I leave this ugly coin the way it is or dip it ?
     
    spenser, Nov 30, 2015
    #36 + Quote Reply
  18. Kentucky

    Kentucky Supporter! Supporter

    Hard to say without seeing it. Dipping with diluted EZest couldn't hurt, but take your time, the un-dip stuff is still in the experimental stage (actually there is none)
     
    Kentucky, Nov 30, 2015
    #37 + Quote Reply
  19. SuperDave

    SuperDave Free the Cartwheels!

    Contemplate this very, very carefully. Dip works by stripping metal from the coin - once it's gone, it's gone forever. And there is a level of toning - the very dark stages - where not even the most successful dip can save the coin. It's all or nothing with removing toning. You don't walk it back, you strip it away.

    And a given coin can only stand so many seconds in dip before it's ruined forever. Each coin differs, depending on a bazillion factors from alloy to strike to the life it's led since. In any event, it's measured in seconds. How many seconds can your coin stand? You only know if you exceed it.

    As a personal rule of thumb I won't employ thiourea with a coin which has progressed to showing black color anywhere on it. It's just too risky. And one more thing to consider: It's very difficult to dip a coin which is not Mint State without making it look silly. I've never succeeded, and stopped trying before I killed any more coins.


    Seated especially, and to a lesser extent Barber, minor coinage has, to me, to be evaluated through a different lens than other issues with regard to surface "originality." Seated stuff circulated for decades, into the Barber era and beyond, doing the nation's work. It could change hands, and conditions, multiple times a day. And its' circulating lifetime was spent in many cases in atmospheres we'd consider to foul to live in today. Sulfuric atmospheres, from the unfiltered burning of so much coal to power industry.

    A coin could tone black pretty quickly in those days. Maybe some enterprising kid with a scrap of emery cloth wiped it off back in 1879, and then it circulated for fifty more years. If it was cleaned ~150 years ago, it deserves to be considered more "contemporary charm" than "scarlet letter."
     
    SuperDave, Nov 30, 2015
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    ldhair likes this.
  20. David Setree Rare Coins

    David Setree Rare Coins Well-Known Member

    I would buy them rare as uncleaned without too much thought. Sometimes I think they get really picky.
     
    David Setree Rare Coins, Nov 30, 2015
    #39 + Quote Reply
  21. spenser

    spenser Active Member

    I forgot to mention that the coin is MS-FH by Cline's standards. A pretty coin at one time.
     
    spenser, Dec 1, 2015
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