I was told that this coin was harshly cleaned, but it still has the cartwheel effect. Is this possible?
Of course it's possible to still have a cartwheel effect on a harshly cleaned coin. I really can't make out much by your image though, seems like a dipped XF-AU from here.
I agree with this but will add to it. While it is certainly possible to have a Cartwheel effect on a clean coin, the difference is to if it's a artificial or man-made Cartwheel effect or a natural and original mint luster Cartwheel effect. Basically the same theory as Toning.....
As a rule, someone who is trying to sell a coin that has been harshly cleaned will take photos at an angle as you have. This is intended to hide the appearance of improper cleaning. I'm not suggesting that you have taken these photos for this reason, but would you mind giving us photos taken from directly overhead? Chris
On coins with very strong cartwheel luster, the undulations in the surface which reflect light are much taller top-to-bottom, and will take more effort than a simple cleaning to remove from a new coin. Thus, it is absolutely possible for a cleaned coin to retain cartwheel luster as well.
Now Charlie, I'm not picking on you when I say this, but "same screwed-up theory as toning" would be my way of rephrasing that. Do you know why? Maybe you're into hanging labels, I'm into collecting coins. When a coin is harshly cleaned the cartwheel rotation is stripped away. There's nothing that can get that back. If there's cartwheel rotation, along with flatness, scratches, i.e., signs of cleaning, I'm factoring in the latter and discounting the value, I'm not hanging a label and calling it quits on the coin for that. Too many collectors do because they take their eye off the coin for their mind's eye, which is everywhere but on the coin. Is the toning artificial? Is it natural? It's tarnish. Get with it. We're not clairvoyant. It's not important why the tarnish got there. What's important is whether it's eye-appealing, to our eye. And cartwheel rotation can't be imparted. It's just a fact of life, like rush-hour traffic. Once those spokes, i.e., Mint flow-lines are gone, it's gone. That's why we learn, don't clean. It's irreparable, we don't get those back.
It's simple physics. Cartwheel is a function of surface roughness on a microscopic scale. Regardless of whether the coin has been cleaned, if sufficient of that roughness remains, the coin will cartwheel. If not, it won't. Dipping done right does not affect cartwheel. Does this coin show cartwheel? The coin is lit and shot under conditions which would tend to bring that out, and I'm not seeing it. Which is appropriate, because it seems circulated.
Like Dave said, it's simple. If the micro-flowlines are removed, no cartwheel, if they remain, it will cartwheel. A trained eye can spot disturbances in the flowlines that can be indicative of either a cleaning or wear. I see absolutely no indication of cartwheel spokes in the given pictures.
If the price is right then buy it. To me from the small pic it looks not too bad. What is the asking price.
If the price is reasonable(in the ballpark) for this piece I'd buy it cause it looks looks good to me.A little dunk now and then isn't a capital crime. It will be back to looking grimy soon enough....
What I see in the photos is a coin with some luster in the devices (which should be expected to cartwheel) and barren fields (from cleaning) which would not. cartwheel depends on radial flow lines which a rough cleaning in the fields will obliterate.
I should "get with it"..... edited Plain and simple, there's artificial cartwheel effect and natural cartwheel effect, same as artificial toning and natural toning. That is accepted widely, you are the only one "labeling" here. You collect coins with your specific, self believed "theory" and I will collect coins and believe as the majority of others do. There is no way you can deny the fact artificial cartwheel effect and toning exist.
That's what I'm saying. Others in here are under the erroneous impression you can create it. They need to get with it. You can't create it. Once those "spokes" are gone, they're gone. You and SuperDave are saying just what I'm saying on that. The Mint flow lines are what cause the cartwheel, cleaning to various degrees will disturb the Mint flow lines to various degrees, and hence will the disturb cartwheel to various degrees, and you can't restore that, and period.
Are we saying: Can some cartwheeling exist after a coin is cleaned? Or are we saying: Can cartwheeling be restored after it is completely removed by cleaning? The word "artificial" implies the latter of the two. The first choice would be defined as "original". Cartwheeling doesn't magically reappear over time. It is a physical condition while toning is a reaction. Like it or not.
There's no question that coin been cleaned to death. There's no way a coin from 1875 that's been circulated would have surfaces like that. Cleaned and polished coins can have a cartwheel effect but is not the same look as a undisturbed original uncirculated coin polishing does not create the look of mint made metal flow lines
